please encourage me to not give up (inc graph and pf discussion)

[yourface]

I _think_ I'm good at limit holdem. I've read (and thought about) all the books, participated in the forums, worked hard on improving my game. I'm not saying I'm amazing, I definately make bad some bad calldowns and the occasional overplay (usually tilt induced, but I'm working on it), but I seat and table select really well and I feel that I have an edge in the games I play. so how can this happen to me?


yes, I did just out myself. I'd appreciate any comments from party regs.

this is limit holdem this year so far, 3/6 and 5/10. not many hands because I took a break and played NL for a while. I made a bunch of money there, and proceeded to donk it all off when I came back to limit. I understand the effects of variance and small sample size, but this is just obscene.

I feel that my game has improved through this trial by fire, since I've been working extra hard to plug up leaks, but it all seems to be for nothing. I really do feel like I've been running bad, but there must be more to it right? see BBV for a couple of my bad beat posts if interested.

one thing that I'm somewhat concerned about is my preflop vpip and atsb. over these 20k hands I've been running at a nitty 21.7/16.5.
heres my general opening standard:
UTG: ATo+, A8s+, KJo+, TJs+, 66+
MP: A9o+, TJs+, A6s+, JQo+, 55+
CO: A7o+, 9Ts+, 44+
button: AXo/s, K6o+, KXs, Q7o+, Q6s+, J9o+, J8s+, 89o, 9To, suited connectors 45s+, suited 1gappers 79s+, 22+

I will mix in some of the better suited connectors in earlier positions occasionally to mix it up. I isolate bad limpers relatively light depending on my position, and OTB I 3bet CO raises from LAGTAGs with ATo+, A8s+, JQs+, KQ+, 55+, occasionally 9Ts/89s. I won't get into blind play here, but my stats are 88fsbts and 57 fbbts. am I missing out on any big +EV spots with this range?

anyways, some encouraging "buck up kid"s, "walk it off"s, and such would be much appreciated. and if you're a party reg please advise me as to wtf I am doing wrong.

[celiboy]

You might suck...can't say for sure over only 20K hands...that is why limit sucks as people will blow off 50K break even stretches as variance. Any game where you can go 50K hands being break even while playing a winning game sucks. Switch to NL.

[511 Peas]

Feel free to completely ignore my post, or mock it openly for my lack of posting frequency.

20k Hands isn't that small of a sample. Considered not playing 3/6 and 5/10 until you're winning over at least a 10k hand stretch at 1/2 and 2/4 (or even lower?). It's quite possible you're getting crushed by semi-pro and superior players who are aware of a propensity to tilt (a somewhat common trait of many good [and some very good] NL players who utilize superior EIQ [emotional intelligence] in their NL play.)

Last thing- A limit player swithing to NL can use much of his/her experience in adapting to NL. Pure NL Players (who oft glean their edge by playing styles/timing/reading of opponents) commonly make terrible limit players, as the fundamentals of limit (mathematics) CAN be absent from a good NL player who can trade much mathematical/statistical prowess for strong opponent reads (even on-line) and a solid understanding of table dominitaion/fear tactics (emotional/psychological prowess). The same is oft NOT true for players taking their NL games to limit.

Maybe you've an impressive EIQ (E being an acronym for emotional) and a simply average IQ. The brilliant nerd-introvert with horrible people skills and no friends can make a great limit player; (why are all the limit greats MIT/Harvard mathmeticians and physicists?.) The people-savvy "dimwit" loved by everyone can make a great NL player. Why? Utilization of completely different areas of the brain towards the same goal: being a successful poker player.

The interesting paradigm is limit to NL oft works far better than NL to limit.

Helmuth is a self-admitted HORRIBLE limit player and most likely could not match many intermediate 2+2 players in big bets/hr averages. The same can NOT be said of most good limit players taking their games to NL, as they apply their knowledge of statistics/probability (oft most advantageous pre-flop) to be able to at least "hold their own" when playing strong NL players.

An encouragement? Try picking up limit with the mind of a pure novice in your re-readings of key texts (i.e don't re-read Theory of Poker with your thoughts on limit until you've done so with Small Stakes Hold 'Em [SSHE.]) That, and stay stong. You know what a great game this is. Would it be so great if it was plumb-easy? Would you even enjoy it?


Now, feel free to ridicule......

[TheWunderkind]

My first Month in Limit shorthand was worse i dropped more then 600BB and i played 2/4..now 2 Months later i play 5/10 with about 1300BB thats all i want to say, take from it what you want.

btw think about playing at other sites...play with bonusses and RB, you might only be down 200BB if you had recieved RB and Bonusses during this Time, Bonus and RB is a big part, of my poker income, even bigger then poker itself.


good luck bro and dont give up, change sites get RB and bonusses and drop to at least 3/6...


i want to add i had a 400BB downer this month as well...

[511 Peas]

Oh- last thing. Want to win? Don't do your limit playing at UB and Full Tilt, as there is a markedly greater frequency of above-average limit players on the aforementioned, as opposed to somewhere like Bodog.

[yourface]

this is only from this year. prior to this bs I was a significant winner at .5/1, 1/2, and 2/4 for over a year as I learned the game and built up my roll from a 200$ deposit (100k+ hands). it was probably a bad decision to jump up to 5/10 after cashing in at NL, but I was overrolled for it so I figured why not, NL was boring the [censored] out of me. so I don't think it's because I suck, but I guess it's possible. I'm sure I don't suck as much as many of the players that I seek out to play with, and I haven't noticed anyone actively seeking me out.

rakeback would definately be a huge help. I'm just too lazy to change sites and the games at PP are quite juicy right now with quite a few regular donators.

I am moving down to keep >300BB for the level I am playing, and unfortunately due to a big cashout prior to this diaster (cashout curse!) I am now playing 2/4. boourns.

any comments on my preflop stuff anyone?

[kitaristi0]

[ QUOTE ]
You might suck...can't say for sure over only 20K hands...that is why limit sucks as people will blow off 50K break even stretches as variance. Any game where you can go 50K hands being break even while playing a winning game sucks. Switch to NL.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though you probably weren't implying it, the notion that 50k hand breakeven (or losing) stretchs don't happen to winning NLHE players is very wrong.

[Schwatt]

[ QUOTE ]
this is only from this year. prior to this bs I was a significant winner at .5/1, 1/2, and 2/4 for over a year

[/ QUOTE ]

I was a 3BB+/100 winner at 6-max last year along with a 2BB+/100 winner at full ring 8+ tabling. (Mostly 2/4)

This year I am BE at FR ~70k hands, and .5BB/100 at 6-max ~150k hands. The games are rediculously harder. I keep asking myself why I don't switch to no-limit, but running like this for so long I wouldn't be able to handle getting stacked a few times when I first start.

This is at Stars BTW.