How good/ bad is this?

[Mr.Poker]

This hand happened a few days ago now in a $20 180 man, Villian (from what i remember) had raised my BB from the button twice (i folded both times) but seemed reasonably tight on the whole...hadn't played with him for that long so probably best to think of him as standard 180 man type player. (BB is decent and has >$60,000 of cashes)

How good or bad is this? and why?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t3575)
BB (t6345)
Hero (t5835)
UTG+1 (t4831)
MP1 (t5765)
MP2 (t870)
MP3 (t5500)
CO (t4090)
Button (t7045)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls t200, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t600) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t400</font>, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t5635</font>,

[thesilkworm]

UTG limp with 2-2 is questionable.

I think your flop play is pretty suicidal to be honest. I'm all for taking big risks, but this is just too risky for me.

[ItalianFX]

I wouldn't limp UTG with 22. I wouldn't even raise it. If it was short-handed, then maybe I'd open with a raise, but not with a full table.

You have four 4s for the straight and two 2's for a set, but the monotone flop is not good for you. This probably gets closer when the flop isn't all of one suit, but when you get called here, you're in bad shape. You may even be drawing dead so your 6 outs could probably be 2 or 3 at the most.

If you must play this hand, just call the flop and reevaluate on the turn.

[Mr.Poker]

I think you are looking at this slightly in the wrong way...

While we are likely drawing dead if we are called, we are representing a much bigger hand than we have, after limping UTG, raising large on the flop, we could well be doing this with AsAx among others.

We also need to consider how the raising ranges and calling ranges of Villian differ, and in this case, I think they are quite far apart.

I.e
Villian will lead here with which hands?
Villian will call all-in with which hands?

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

The limp is fine. The BB is 200... so I don't have a hate on for the limping and you got away with it... but the flop bet I hate. It is what it looks like. Now this is where the limp is bad. Either limp 22 and get off it when you need to or raise 22 (bluff) and cont bet. But as played... me no likey.

I would think you can accomplish the same thing with a bet of raise to 1200 or 1400 if you trying to find out if SB is bluffing and your trying to buy the pot. this way either he comes over you and you're doomed, he folds you win, he calls and likely you see a free river because he doesn't donk the turn.

[ItalianFX]

Any hand that is calling us is beating us except a missed flush draw. I could understand if our hand could stand up to an aggressive move by the SB, but he has less chips than us. Even if he thinks that his pair of 3's are good, we are still an underdog. If we had 77+, that would be better because we could stand a donk move on top pair, but it's much more different no matter what they are leading with or calling an all-in with when we are holding 22 compared to an overpair.

I think the real question is how often we think SB is going to fold.

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are looking at this slightly in the wrong way...

While we are likely drawing dead if we are called, we are representing a much bigger hand than we have, after limping UTG, raising large on the flop, we could well be doing this with AsAx among others.

We also need to consider how the raising ranges and calling ranges of Villian differ, and in this case, I think they are quite far apart.

I.e
Villian will lead here with which hands?
Villian will call all-in with which hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you're the kind of guy that limps aces when the blinds are small and SB is going to beleive that?

[gholizad]

This is incredibly huge overbet IMO. The risk/reward ratio is really high+ if you're called even with 2 high cards and flush draw, you're still underdog.

[glass_onion]

I made almost the exact play and lost with AK late in a 20/180. I had the ace of the flush suit however. Other than that, it was exactly the same play, open push.

I got called in my situation with trips and no flush draw. He thought a long time about calling with those trips, too.

Ultimately, since what you want is a fold here, you overbet, plain and simple. I'm not ripping on you since I made pretty much the same play recently, but upon further review I find it pretty indefensible. I don't think you will find anyone who thinks this is a great way to play it.

Now, if you actually hit the flush, maybe. BUt I'd be willing to bet that you would never play the made flush this way. Therefore, with most any hand I"D call you. My villian made a set seem like a tough call, so maybe calling range is small. Still, risk of ruin is very high here.

[Mr.Poker]

Let me be clear, Im really not trying to defend this play at all, I wanted to use it to try and get some discussion about some ways to analyse a hand and therefore take the best course....

In this hand, I limped UTG playing for set value. I can easily toss it to a raise or missed board and that what i will do MOST of the time. However, I will also limp with alot of other hands UTG including mid pairs, big pairs, AQ among others, not always, but definitely at certain times.

When the flop came, I was ready to toss it, especially as I didnt have the 2 of spades (so pretty much had no draw).

But then I thought, there is 1000 currently in the pot already. Villian has plenty of chips left ie. I have lots of FE and I can represent a much bigger hand after limping from UTG, so I need him to fold 40% of time (1400 to win (after calling), lose 3400 if he calls) to make this profitable (even if i lose everytime he calls).

I considered that his range was such that he would fold far more than 40% of the time here, therefore I push.

Is there something particularly wrong with this thought process?