A thread about Ax suited

rafiki · #1 03-19-2007, 11:35 AM

So there's another thread discussing a hand with A7s, and rather then derail the topic which I think is more concerned with the river play, I'd like to talk about it preflop.

Assuming a raise from EP or MP (let's say from a solid player), and you look down at a hand like A7s on the button, how many players do you need to have in the hand before it's correct to call 2 cold there. The other forum mentions that from the look of things, we're seeing 5 people to the flop. Is that not an ideal number for us to be calling 2 cold there ? If not, are we happier with say, 89s ?

The theory I know on this hand and the range of position we play it in mostly comes from the classic sklansky books. But I think those charts are obviously all up for debate. Wouldn't mind hearing back from the experienced posters on how many players you'd like in a raised pot before you decide to start playing these suited aces and suited connectors. I know that the big suited aces are a no brainer, so maybe let's say A9s and lower. Also I'd be curious to know the different outcomes based on it being CO, Button, Sb.

AragornX151 · #2 03-19-2007, 12:37 PM

I'd prefer 89s by a lot here. It's much easier to establish where you're at on the flop, and you're almost never dominated. In the scenario you described, calling a raise cold with A7s even with 2-3 cold callers is pretty awful. A solid player has raised in early position, and several fish/decent people have called the raise. I'd need 4-5 calls to consider making it, and I'm folding the flop unless I flop a flush draw, trips, or two pair. I'd consider calling with 3-4 people with 89s if I had control of the table.

In general, though, you're not giving up much if anything by just tossing preflop in almost all of these scenarios. You really need to play well postflop to make it profitable to EVER call a raise cold with these hands.

rafiki · #3 03-19-2007, 01:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the scenario you described, calling a raise cold with A7s even with 2-3 cold callers is pretty awful. A solid player has raised in early position, and several fish/decent people have called the raise. I'd need 4-5 calls to consider making it

[/ QUOTE ]

Well with 3 people in front of us, and a guaranteed call out of the big blind with any 2 cards, 5 to the flop seems about right in my mind. As for playing it post flop, that's probably the easiest part of the equation for me. Mostly I guess I'm interested in the math behind what makes the call profitable preflop.

So far the concensus is 5 to the flop. Anyone vote for more or less ? Is that too simplistic a view in terms of why we may call or fold ?

vmacosta · #4 03-19-2007, 01:37 PM

I'd play it if there were two coldcallers. But I'd play a lot of hands if there were two coldcallers (including crap like KJo sometimes).

rafiki · #5 03-19-2007, 01:42 PM

ok so 2 cold callers is almost always going to mean 5 to the flop by the time the BB has to call getting 9 to 1.

gerrger79 · #6 03-19-2007, 03:35 PM

I would fold in that position 80% of the time and the 20% of times that I call would be based on my day...table control and the quality of players....I think calling 100% of the time, in a raised pot, is a loosing proposition when holding small suited ace, regardless of quantityof callers. so I don't think we can create a solid folrmula for this situation. there are always other factors that come in to count.

rafiki · #7 03-19-2007, 03:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold in that position 80% of the time and the 20% of times that I call would be based on my day...table control and the quality of players....I think calling 100% of the time, in a raised pot, is a loosing proposition when holding small suited ace, regardless of quantityof callers. so I don't think we can create a solid folrmula for this situation. there are always other factors that come in to count.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok that's an interesting perspective. How much of theory still applies if you are now BB, and are putting in one more small bet. I do suppose that the difference in the BB is you close the action (that has to count for something).

gerrger79 · #8 03-19-2007, 03:57 PM

I forgot to mention that I'm always calling in the blinds when there has been only one raise specialy when closing the action....

Frond · #9 03-19-2007, 05:38 PM

I also like to consider the quality of play of the initial raiser before i decide to call or toss. What has he been raising with, is he tight, loose, idiotic etc. Being UTG is usually a strong sign of a hand but what if it is from a loose idiot and you have only 2 callers after him? I'm in then with my A7s. If however it is from someone who has been folding a lot PF hands it is very easy to toss it to a raise. For a # though, 4-5 sounds about right generally speaking.

velvetmadman · #10 03-19-2007, 05:45 PM

Its true there isnt a solid formula, but there never is if you're playing right. I'd say there are 2 important things to think about that haven't been mentioned:
1. If any of the callers tend to overplay top pair good kicker
2. How deep you and opponents are (specifically, ones who are prone to overcommit)
Despite the obvious flush, the 2 pair, especially when getting a good price (as in BB), can make a lot of money if someone can't let go of a paired A with K or Q kicker.

Against someone like this I'd get money in quickly so they have less reasons to fold.

That being said, I'd still toss it in most situations