Misplayed AA's

Watkins · #1 03-11-2007, 07:45 AM

UTG is a bad player, you can be fairly certain that his bets/raises don't mean that much. MP is 20/5/0.9/(220) I've not seen him go to the river with a weak holding. Incidently his turn AF is 2.2 but I guess that could mean a lot of things.

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (14SB, 4 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls.

I'm sure I should have 3-bet here, not sure why I didn't. MP2's cold call worried me a little, am I right to be worried on this board?

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10BB, 3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP2 raises

I knew UTG would bet this so I wanted to see how MP2 reacted to this, does anyone like this?

So I have a bunch of questions but really I want to know what people think of the turn play. Does anyone like checking the turn to gauge MP2's play after the UTG bet?

If MP2 raises where do we go from there is everyone into calldown mode?
If everyone prefers betting out the turn how do we play against a raise then?
If we had 3-bet the flop how does this change things?

milesdyson · #2 03-11-2007, 07:48 AM

Fold, standard imo.

milesdyson · #3 03-11-2007, 07:48 AM

Meh I didn't read your comments on UTG. Tough hand then I guess. Sorry I drank too much delicious beer.

fretelöo · #4 03-11-2007, 02:35 PM

Actually, I don't hate this whole hand. It's difficult though.

First of all, you 3bet from the BB, after a LP raise. That's purely for value and MP2 must know that. So that narrows your range down quite a bit, imho, in his eyes. I doubt he'd assume you'd do that with AJs or worse. That leaves AQs/AKs/TT+. In that light, him cold-calling the raise on this rather dryish board is indeed reason to worry. He's somewhat on the passive side, but would he do this with a draw? I doubt it. So some made hand. As A2s is rather unlikely, imho, as I'd assume he'd raise that to keep max pressure on you, I might end up putting him on 88 or so (or, naturally, a slowplayed QTs) at least.

Thus, a 3bet seems to yield additional info, as he'd have to conclude his 88 aren't good and I don't really see him continue w/out a Q.

Seeing that you didn't, I think this hand became almost unplayable. Given your flop-call, MP might very well raise with just 88's now, or raise his slowplayed Q.
If you donk the turn, UTG might still raise, being the idiot that he is, and MP might again choose to just call - even with a queen, seeing that he's somewhat passive) - which would tell you nothing, cost you two BB and would still oblige you to go to the river.
If you check as played, he might raise with his 88 seeing UTG as the idiot that he is. You can't go over the top and cold-calling just sucks.

I think I fold. I'm not convinced we're beaten but there's just no way in the world how we can play this hand correctly anymore. We'll pay probably 3BB at least to win 14 and I could easily see us being beaten more than 1:4.

As to your questions: I think either checking or betting the turn after your flop is equally tough as it gives you little info. Probably donking is a bit better as a Stop'n'Go might freeze someone and could look to them as a really strong play and might put 88 into call-down mode.

After a flop 3bet, at least MP will give you credit for a made hand and that hand definitely not being 22's. Also, I would assume that it dawns to UTG as well that 72o isn't good enough here. So any further aggression would make me really suspicious. Turn would be a definite b/f, river probably as well.

As miles said - really tough spot. I'm guessing, really... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

BigBadBabar · #5 03-11-2007, 04:55 PM

i would 3bet flop and lead out turn, and if it comes back to you 3bet on the turn (or if the guy is sandbagging a queen on the flop and coldcall/caps the flop) then it's an easy fold. the way you played it it looks kinda grim, but there's also like a small-medium chance he's pulling a move on you with like a medium/big pair in my opinion. you sort of left it open for them to try a move on you given the way you played it. as you played it, i would still lean toward fold though.

campi · #6 03-11-2007, 05:42 PM

I like the call on the flop, and also the check/fold on turn. If you 3bet the flop I would lead out the turn, and play just like Babar adviced before.

fretelöo · #7 03-13-2007, 06:41 AM

Watkins,

what happened in the hand?

beak · #8 03-13-2007, 06:50 AM

Hi, i would fold flop after mp2 cold calls the raise, most prob drawing to two outs or worse, IMO.

Set_Wenker · #9 03-13-2007, 09:11 AM

Grunch

I am not sure if I am too weak, but mp2 coldcalling really, really worries me. I don't see what good three-betting will do us. I would say the right line on the turn is to bet and fold if MP2 suddenly raises. But i've been reading this forum since a few months now and it struck me that I seem to fold way too much.

HarshCharlie · #10 03-13-2007, 11:01 AM

MP2 cold called 2 bets. in my experience (if mp2 is a standard player) this can only mean he has trips or a flush draw, and since there is no flush draw i think ur beat.