AC IP Contract Law Question

TomCollins · #1 03-10-2007, 10:55 PM

pvn and others have established that copyrights and other such protections would probably exist in AC-land. If I sell you a copy of my CD, it comes with an agreement that you will not copy it. If you do, I can sue you in violation of this contract.

However, suppose I sell person X a copy of my CD with that agreement. Person X ends up making 100 copies anyway (without my knowledge). He sells or gives them to Person X1-X100, minus the agreement. My imperfect investigation leads me to Person X22, who has made another 100 copies and sold/gave away my CD. I cannot prove or have no evidence he got it from Person X. X22 clearly has no agreement with me not to copy my CD. I try to sue him, but he tells me to buzz off.

This seems to be the case that there will not even be any (effective) copyright protection, even when contract law is given. Tell me where I'm wrong.

BCPVP · #2 03-10-2007, 11:22 PM

Obviously I'm not 100% sure how it would work. Perhaps some combination of a scrambling system and contract that makes you liable for copies made by others. I'm sure people looking to keep this from happening would figure it out.

TomCollins · #3 03-10-2007, 11:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I'm not 100% sure how it would work. Perhaps some combination of a scrambling system and contract that makes you liable for copies made by others. I'm sure people looking to keep this from happening would figure it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the old "blind faith" argument.

If I can't figure out who let the cat out of the bag, even if there is a scrambling system, I'm pretty much SOL, right?

tolbiny · #4 03-10-2007, 11:34 PM

Tom-
I think in these situations producers of the CDs will be able to show that the person X22 could not have obtain a copying license from the original producers and that they could only reasonably have received it from someone who had stolen it (or received it stolen) in the first place. In other words X22 will have to show some level of due diligence on their part to ensure they aren't receiving stolen goods and will be liable to some extent.

Poofler · #5 03-10-2007, 11:34 PM

This 100% depends on what we're talking about. End-user license agreements might help fill that void for software, for example. Also, the nature of contract law, which is complex, might be different in whatever AC world we're talking about. What we might consider problematic contracts, might be routinely upheld to facilitate business.

bobman0330 · #6 03-10-2007, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tom-
I think in these situations producers of the CDs will be able to show that the person X22 could not have obtain a copying license from the original producers and that they could only reasonably have received it from someone who had stolen it (or received it stolen) in the first place. In other words X22 will have to show some level of due diligence on their part to ensure they aren't receiving stolen goods and will be liable to some extent.

[/ QUOTE ]

They aren't receiving stolen goods though. The goods (which presumably started as a blank CD) are the legitimate property of the first purchaser.

I don't immediately see a workable solution. Perhaps some sort of analogy from the current law of covenants, but there's a serious problem there because the actual goods being sold "wrongfully" are different from the ones the buyer received from the artist.

TomCollins · #7 03-10-2007, 11:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tom-
I think in these situations producers of the CDs will be able to show that the person X22 could not have obtain a copying license from the original producers and that they could only reasonably have received it from someone who had stolen it (or received it stolen) in the first place. In other words X22 will have to show some level of due diligence on their part to ensure they aren't receiving stolen goods and will be liable to some extent.

[/ QUOTE ]

But he's not "stealing" anything since ideas cannot be owned (at least according to AC posters). He isn't violating any contract he agreed to either. When you sue him, you are originating aggression against him, since he never agreed to such terms.

BCPVP · #8 03-10-2007, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I'm not 100% sure how it would work. Perhaps some combination of a scrambling system and contract that makes you liable for copies made by others. I'm sure people looking to keep this from happening would figure it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the old "blind faith" argument.

If I can't figure out who let the cat out of the bag, even if there is a scrambling system, I'm pretty much SOL, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd call it more of an educated guess than blind faith.

TomCollins · #9 03-10-2007, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Obviously I'm not 100% sure how it would work. Perhaps some combination of a scrambling system and contract that makes you liable for copies made by others. I'm sure people looking to keep this from happening would figure it out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, the old "blind faith" argument.

If I can't figure out who let the cat out of the bag, even if there is a scrambling system, I'm pretty much SOL, right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd call it more of an educated guess than blind faith.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please try to back it up then with some reasoning. You are a smart guy, I'm sure you can do it. Just because there is a demand for something doesn't mean there is a logical way for it to be produced by the market. There is a huge demand for donkeys that crap gold bars but I doubt it will be solved in AC land.

WillMagic · #10 03-10-2007, 11:49 PM

Yeah, this is where I differ from a lot of ACists on this board...I'm pretty pessimistic about copyright protection in AC.

I think the most likely scenario is for a kind of "decentralized patronage" system to pop up - artists will put their music up for download on an official site, either "charging" by the track or simply asking for donations. I also think that there's room for product differentiation - the artist can put out a product with some sort of official "I get paid if you buy this product" stamp, and that this form of the product might be popular enough. Musicians also will still be able to tour and make a lot of money that way....but the days of record companies being able to make money by putting media on plastic are numbered.

I also don't think this problem is necessarily unique to AC. IP is going to be increasingly harder and harder to protect as download speeds get faster even with government passing laws against it.