B&M 3/6 LO8 good fold or too tight?

[Little Wing]

Hey guys, after being registered for almost 5 years and posting only a handful of times, I finally decided to post a hand. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I've been playing poker in home games since I was a kid, never played on the internet, but I've been playing in B&M's pretty regularly for about 5 or 6 years, mostly LLHE and a few local tournaments. I do OK at that (I'ver read several 2+2 books-TOP, HEFAP, HOH1 and 2, TPFAP)and although I haven't put a lot of effort into it, I'm ahead and probably win a little over 1BB/hr. I also used to lurk here quite often, but haven't been around much int he last couple of years (was actually surprised to see my registration was still valid) A few months ago the B&M where I play most of the time started a Saturday 3/6 O8 game with a full kill and I switched to playing that almost exclusively. It's pretty soft, with most pots being unraised and 5 or 6 players seeing every flop. Anyway, I've been reading up on the game and I thought I would start posting a few live O8 hands to see where I can improve. Thanks in advance for looking. I've got a couple of more hands from last night but I'll post them in separate threads. Here goes:

again, the game is 3/6 and I was in the BB with 3 5 6 T r and I guess about 5 of us saw the 348 rainbow flop. I checked and someone behind me bet, there were a couple of calls and I folded when it came back to me. Thoughts?

[jcx]

pretty easy fold. the only great card in the deck for you is a 2, and you can easily be counterfeited on the river. I'd lay it down against this # of opponents, esp OOP.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
the game is 3/6 and I was in the BB with 3 5 6 T r and I guess about 5 of us saw the 348 rainbow flop. I checked and someone behind me bet, there were a couple of calls and I folded when it came back to me. Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]Little Wing - Tough decision.

I think you should either directly bet this flop or check-raise. I would definitely not fold. (I prefer directly betting the flop because of the way I play some other hands).

From here you figure to make a straight about one third of the time and win with the straight 70+ per cent of the time when you do make the straight. The hand also has some other high possibilities.

Believe it or not, your 65 combo will win for low about as often as any of four individual opponents with random hands wins individually for low (actually a bit more, as simulated). Collectively, of course, the four individual random hands win for low more often, as simulated.

As simulated, you scoop more than twice as often as any of four opponents with random hands. (Of course your opponents don't have random hands).

Thus compared to four random hands, after this particular flop, your trashy looking T653-rainbow is the leader!

You'd never voluntarily play this hand (I hope) but once you see this 843 flop with it, I think you should continue. And if you continue, I think you should apply some pressure rather than playing meekly. I don't like check/calling here at all. (You do have the open-ended straight draw plus some other ways to win high, in addition to a bad low).

Just as you have to be able to change your opinion of a fine starting hand after you miss the flop, you also have to be able to change your opinion of a trash starting hand after a flop such as this.

But it's hard to see, and when someone bets, you have visions of chasing an opponent with an ace-deuce low and you figure at least half the pot is lost to you.

This is, in my humble opinion, a tough hand/flop to play, and you're out of position. Check/folding is understandable and not terrible, but I think you should put more pressure on your opponents.

Buzz

[fishyak]

I'd want to see one card. I think you have a surprisingly robust high OESD with your 56. It is not likely to face quartering if you hit. Scoop potential is unlikely for the hand, but is not impossible at this point. Particularly live, I'm sure you heard the classic lie we tell the table and ourselves a 1000 times: "One time." If you have the discipline to fold if unimproved, I would check/call. You did get to close the action.

I am loath the disagree with Buzz, but I do not bet this flop. A2 in late position is going to raise me for sure and I want to see the next card, but I want it see it on the cheap.

One time.

[ManInArena]

[ QUOTE ]
pretty easy fold. the only great card in the deck for you is a 2, and you can easily be counterfeited on the river. I'd lay it down against this # of opponents, esp OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

This says what I would, in a far more clear and concise manner. This is not a good situation to get entangled in.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
A2 in late position is going to raise me for sure and I want to see the next card, but I want it see it on the cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]Fishyak - I wouldn't mind so much getting raised as being confronted by an opponent who was dealt A2XY. And that is a distinct possibility here, more likely than not at a full table. There's no getting around that.

Since Hero has neither an ace nor a deuce, one of Hero's opponents at a full table is more likely than not to have been dealt A2XY. (I'd guess roughly 58 to 42 at a nine-handed table, but not necessarily in late position).

But if nobody was dealt A2XY, then many other possible low draws (A3XY, 23XY, A4XY, 24XY, 34XY) have been counterfeited. Opponents with any of these hands might not want to continue after this flop.

Someone with A2XY, of course, will continue after this flop. And if there are many limpers after Hero bets, I concede that someone with A2XY in late position will very likely raise.

However if Hero bets, anyone who saw this flop with any other pre-flop potential low winner might not want to continue in the face of pressure from Hero (who from their viewpoints could possibly have A2XY).

Assuming hero continues after this flop, Hero should want anyone who saw the flop with A35X, A36X, A45X, or A46X out of this pot. But if Hero checks, he fails to put pressure on someone in middle position with one of these hands.

You always run the risk of a raise if you bet from early position. However, the raise isn't the issue in my mind as much as being up against A2XY. Deuces should be Hero's favorite outs here - and if someone has A2XY, that eliminates one of Hero's prime outs.

As simulated, Hero doesn't win more often than not - just more often than any one of four opponents with random cards. And that's for a non-folding simulation. Hero increases his chances of winning if an opponent who would have ended up with a better hand caves in to the pressure of a flop bet from Hero.

This hand/flop is not a clear cut winner for Hero. It's one of those situations where you usually lose, but you expect to make enough on the times you win to offset what you lose on the (more frequent) times you lose.

One more thing to consider: it would at least be good for Hero to know early in the play of the hand if he is up against A2XY. At least if Hero gets raised, he has better information.

(But of course I would not want to get raised by someone in late position who was holding A2XY). (And I'll agree that one should not always play a given hand in exactly the same way).

After careful consideration, I still favor risking a raise and betting this hand/flop in early position. To each his own, I guess.

Buzz

[wackjob]

donk the flop. if it comes back for 1 more bet, its an easy call, and if it comes back for 2 more, its an easy fold. this is about the only flop that is any good for your hand(aside from actually flopping the nut straight).