Set of K vs all spades on turn

[mikeca]

I had only been there one or two rounds, but it seemed like a loose 3-6 game with 3 players seeing most flops. The 3 loose players were the ones in this hand. Two or three people were walking, so probably only six players.

I’m in the BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Couple of people fold, cutoff bets, button raises, SB calls, I reraise, cutoff now caps it, and everyone calls.

Button has seemed passive, so his raise is unusual. Cutoff has been occasionally aggressive, but I’m not sure what his limp-cap means.

4 players, 16SB, flop is K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I like this flop, except for the spades.

SB checks, I bet, cutoff raises, button and SB call 2 cold, I reraise, and everyone else calls.

4 players, 19 BB, turn is [K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I really didn’t want to see another spade.

Now what is the best play here? Bet and call any raises? Check and call any bets?

What is the best play if the river is non-spade that does not pair the board?

My thoughts are that as large as the pot is, no one with a single spade, 22, 44 or 77 or two pair is folding, but I am not sure what the best play is here.

[BurnleyMik]

This is a horrible spot. I would also like to know the correct play here. I would check-call to see the river and hope the board pairs, if not easy fold. Tough one though.

[ncboiler]

I've been gone from this forum for a loooooong time due to work constraints but I would like to get back in it. May as well start here.

Your flop comment made me laugh a little because it was somewhat of an understatement. Ya that flop was good...EXCEPT for the spades.

Turn. I'm checking and calling any bets. You have 10 outs and the pot is huge. I don't like betting here because I don't think you have the equity to do so. You're behind more than 25% of the time against 4 people. Bet and call.

On the river, if there are still 4 people in it I am torn between folding UI and calling UI. The pot is going to be so big that you will only need to be ahead less than 5% of the time to call a river bet. I do not call two river bets UI. Of course jam it it you pair the board.

[Harv72b]

With (by my count) 14 BBs in the pot, if we check then we're calling no matter what happens behind us. Many, many more good things can happen if we bet than if we check, which, combined with our 10 outs (and that's assuming that someone does have a spade that they're willing to call with) makes this a bet in my mind. If we're raised, we call the raise and pair the board on the river.

OP didn't say whether this was online or B&M, but online I could see making a crying call on the river if it's heads up after the turn. B&M I think it would be a pretty easy check/fold UI.

[Yoshi63]

Grunch:

You're almost certainly in need of the board to pair, and you don't have good enough of a draw to want to build the pot, so I see no reason to bet here. You do however need to call the turn regardless of how large the bets get here, I think.

On the river, you will surely miss your boat. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]... j/k, but if you do miss, here's how I see it. It doesn't appear that the SB will bet. (If he does lead, you might fold depending on who was raising what on the turn). So you check, and if it comes back as 1 BB to you, then call and SD. If it comes back as 2BB or more, fold. I can't imagine you would get stuck in a nasty betting-war here based on your position, which is good.

[Yoshi63]

Ok, after reading Harv's response, I can see the arguement for betting. If you bet, you might get some maniac with 42 to actually raise you, which COULD push out some low spades. Obviously this only accomplishes anything if there aren't any high spades out there, but that remains to be seen. I know if I'm holding the 3s and facing a bet/raise, I'm going to sheepishly muck. And the equity gained by occationally forcing the wnning hand out is HUGE in this spot. Also, by betting you will have a slightly better idea of who's-got-what if you miss the river... this could make your river decision a bit easier.

[threads13]

This is something I have be toiling with a lot lately.

There are 4 people in the pot which means there is an extremely high chance that at least 1 of them has a spade. So, if we bet this turn, it isn't for value. We have 10 outs to a boat, but we would need everybody to simply call just go get value from our draw.

It obviously isn't a semi-bluff because there is almost 0 chance that you will pick up this pot on the turn.

I don't see what betting accomplishes here. Sure, we have the odds to call a raise, but why make it so that we have to call a raise? We would much rather put in 1 bet here than 2.

[mikeca]

So some range of opinion here. Here is what happened:

SB checked to me on the turn. I was confused what to do, so I checked too. It was checked around.

Clearly nobody had a big spade, but maybe a small spade was afraid to bet.

The river was a 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. That paired to board and made my river play easy. SB checked, I bet, the cutoff folded, and the button and SB called.

I showed my KK. The button flashed AA, with no A of spades as he mucked. The SB mucked without showing, but then said he had a smaller full house.

This time I got lucky. I guess my luck cannot always be bad.

[Aces McGee]

[ QUOTE ]
Many, many more good things can happen if we bet than if we check

[/ QUOTE ]

What are these good things?

-McGee

[Bob T.]

Out of position, I think you have to bet the turn.

You are either ahead right now, or, you have several outs ( another set is a possibility). Betting might get someone to fold, and that would be a small victory, if noone had a spade, and one more came on the river, making it a chop.