Raise TT UTG, CO pushes

[betgo]

$100r
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1200 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

SB (t20565)
BB (t42960)
Hero (t20024)
UTG+1 (t27602)
MP1 (t28125)
MP2 (t20825)
CO (t18077)
Button (t11037)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t4800</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t18002</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero ???

[Soulman]

Why do you raise 4x? Why don't you ever include reads in your posts?

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you raise 4x? Why don't you ever include reads in your posts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was actually not hero is this post. I pretty much never raise to 4xBB UTG.

[Soulman]

So are you asking us if hero should, ranges for the both of them, what? This will obviously be influenced by reads...

[betgo]

Don't have reads since wasn't hero. Call or fold? Range for villain? Is villain likely to do anything but push or fold?

[Soulman]

Uhm well, let's make some assumptions then. Hero is pretty tight, and pulls the classic 'I really don't want to play this hand here, but I can't really fold either, so I'll raise 4x so I won't get action but if I do I'm ARRRRR-IN!!" move.

CO might flat call with big and busty hands like KK/AA rather than push. Other than that, assuming CO is standard TAG guy, I'd put his range here on TT+, AQs+, AK+. This assumes hero is tight, things obviously change otherwise.

If I'm Hero, I'm probably calling here since I'm getting 1.8:1 pot odds and vs that range my hand is 1.5:1.

[Cornell Fiji]

All in.

With no reads its a simple math problem. Put him on a pushing range and figure out what your equity is against that range. Count your pot odds and if it is +EV you call. You are +EV agaainst his pushing range... I don't really understand why this is a question

edit to add: I made a big point a couple months ago about how I limp push in spots like this... my theory did not seem to catch on and I don't feell like rehashing it but I feel like that might be the optimal line.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhm well, let's make some assumptions then. Hero is pretty tight, and pulls the classic 'I really don't want to play this hand here, but I can't really fold either, so I'll raise 4x so I won't get action but if I do I'm ARRRRR-IN!!" move.

CO might flat call with big and busty hands like KK/AA rather than push. Other than that, assuming CO is standard TAG guy, I'd put his range here on TT+, AQs+, AK+. This assumes hero is tight, things obviously change otherwise.

If I'm Hero, I'm probably calling here since I'm getting 1.8:1 pot odds and vs that range my hand is 1.5:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
According to ProkerStove, TT is 1.8-1 against the range you give.

As for the 4xBB raise, it is almost the same as pushing. I think open pushing is slightly cEV+ here. Sklansky had a problem with TT with 20xBB with a big ante live. He said open pushing was cEV+. He said at an aggressive table, limp with the intention of usually limpreraising. At a tight table, raise to 2.5xBB with the intention of usually folding to a reraise. Maybe the limp is best here then.

[Soulman]

Whoops, so it is, re: 1.8:1. Reversed the suits. I would probably still call in this specific situation, since I doubt I'd have much of an edge over the field. If I raised with the intention of folding to most pushes, I'd never do 4x (and never do anyway), but more 2.5x like you said.

I don't agree that the 4xraise is almost the same as pushing. I remember that post by Sklansky, and also remember that a lot of guys disagree with him.

I don't think this situation is clear-cut (getting dealt TT with 20 BBs), and I also think someone who says so is full of it.

[betgo]

In the Sklansky example, you have 20xBB with a large ante and TT UTG. Here you have 17xBB.