Another peel situation

[sweetjazz]

You open 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in the CO. Folded to a 29/23 seemingly decent TAG in the BB who 3bets. You call. Which of the flops do you peel?

(1) J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
(2) J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
(3) J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Assuming you do peel, do you consider peeling any of these hands if the turn is the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? I guess a part of the question depends on whether you think AK (w/ or w/o a flush draw) is going to bet the turn or not; let's assume that we have a read that our villain is a tough AG player, but don't have any reads on his specific playing style in this type of situation.

What about the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the turn instead of the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? If villain bets, are you peeling, presumably with the intention of folding to a river bet?

[milesdyson]

I call all 3 (I don't think the suits matter much) and fold if he bets again on a A K Q T or 8 turn, otherwise I will usually call again. I'm curious if this is standard.

[Scary_Tiger]

I raise all three, folding to 3-bet, betting most turns and checking behind most rivers.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise all three, folding to 3-bet, betting most turns and checking behind most rivers.

[/ QUOTE ]
This would be my second choice. I don't say I do this when we don't have more info than just stats, though.

[MarkD]

I fold all 3. Maybe this is why I suck at poker. Definitely may explain why my WTSD is lower than some of you guys.

Basically I am folding the same cards miles is if I do peel (8, T, Q, K, A). Therefor, I am folding on the turn or river 68% of the time. Of the 32% of the time that I am getting to showdown I am probably winning less than 50% of the time so I have an equity of about 16% and I am getting 11-5 to call down. (this is all back of the envelope type of calculations).

So, why are you guys peeling / raising exactly? I feel like there must be a major disconnect for me here.

[MacGuyV]

To me these don't justify the use of the word "peel" b/c folding doesn't even cross my mind [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[sweetjazz]

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I raise all three, folding to 3-bet, betting most turns and checking behind most rivers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line. I guess my thinking of peeling the flop (versus raising) is that my style is generally one where I raise more turns than flops when I am 3bet by someone who is OOP. I prefer to make it quite uncomfortable to have the iniative against me OOP. But I am not sure that this is necessarily optimal, and I have explored putting more raises in on the flop. Ideally I would balance this in a way that would really confuzzle the aggros who can hand read decently.

Scary, how do you handle an A/K/Q on the turn, which for simplicity assume that it is a heart and so does not make any new flush draws? We're basically getting called by every hand that beats us and by AK/AQ/KQ/AT (some of which beat us and the rest have at least 10 outs).

Also, suppose you had seen your opponent show down AK once and in that hand he 3bet the flop in position with just the two overs. Does that affect your decision to raise (versus call) the flop? It's not that uncommon for players to bet/3bet the flop with AK, bet the turn, and then usually check behind if they are in position or do something randomly spazzy OOP. I am not sure how often AK 3bets OOP with just overs, especially on a pretty ugly board like J97, so maybe this is a silly concern.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold all 3. Maybe this is why I suck at poker. Definitely may explain why my WTSD is lower than some of you guys.

Basically I am folding the same cards miles is if I do peel (8, T, Q, K, A). Therefor, I am folding on the turn or river 68% of the time. Of the 32% of the time that I am getting to showdown I am probably winning less than 50% of the time so I have an equity of about 16% and I am getting 11-5 to call down. (this is all back of the envelope type of calculations).



[/ QUOTE ]

my sentiments exactly. even the sucking and wsd parts.

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So, why are you guys peeling / raising exactly? I feel like there must be a major disconnect for me here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd also like to know.

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So, why are you guys peeling / raising exactly? I feel like there must be a major disconnect for me here.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd also like to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because AK, AQ, KQ (and maybe even AT, KTs sometimes depending on opponent) make up a large part of villain's range, and you are getting a decent price to see the river.

Blindly calling down here (assuming the turn and river blank) is a bad idea. In fact putting in more than 1.5 or 2 BBs UI is a pretty big error. But risking 2 BBs to win 5 or so BBs makes continuing on a worthwhile proposition to consider.

[Scary_Tiger]

[ QUOTE ]
So, why are you guys peeling / raising exactly? I feel like there must be a major disconnect for me here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well we have the best hand way too often to fold, whether he had AK/KQ/AQ/AT or whatever, he's still drawing.