10$ 180 players sit&go. Bad play?

[rapsu]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB (t1040)
UTG (t1710)
UTG+1 (t4632)
MP1 (t3070)
MP2 (t590)
CO (t2623)
Button (t1040)
Hero (t1925)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t150</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t125, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t350) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t300</font>, Hero calls t300.

Turn: (t950) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t500</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1475</font>, MP1 calls t975.

River: (t3900) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t3900

I put the guy on two overcards. the blinds were going up in three minutes. Still I feel like I misplayed this hand.

[Sherman]

Well, given that you probably lost the hand, I would have preferred the check/raise move on the flop when the pot was smaller. I'm not sure if I am biased by what I think the apparent results are or not though.

On flops like this, I'll often lead into the PF raiser (which is bad b/c it often allows him to play perfect) or go for the check raise. I don't like the check/call play on the flop. Now we don't know anymore than we did before (i.e. does he have AK or KK).

I usually lead for this reason though: If he has AK, I have taken away his opportunity to c-bet and his odds to call and catch help on the turn. If he has an overpair, he'll usually raise and I can fold out.

Typical line for me is bet flop, check turn if called. But I am not sure this is the best line here.

[registrar]

I quite like this. I think when the 8 turns, you have to prepared to go broke and there is a non-zero (very close to zero) chance that you fold the best hand. Also, big aces often call the turn but not as much the river and of course flush draws don't call on the river.

[rapsu]

shermn27, I dont like your advice betting the flop. " usually lead for this reason though: If he has AK, I have taken away his opportunity to c-bet and his odds to call and catch help on the turn" If he holds AK I am hoping that he c-bets that I can checkraise. If you bet the flop and only get raised/called with hands that beat you, what is the point in betting? I personally think that the best play would have been to check-raise the flop. But Still I would have been pretty much committed in the pot already if he would have moved all in over top of me?

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
shermn27, I dont like your advice betting the flop. " usually lead for this reason though: If he has AK, I have taken away his opportunity to c-bet and his odds to call and catch help on the turn" If he holds AK I am hoping that he c-bets that I can checkraise. If you bet the flop and only get raised/called with hands that beat you, what is the point in betting? I personally think that the best play would have been to check-raise the flop. But Still I would have been pretty much committed in the pot already if he would have moved all in over top of me?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I like it either as betting the flop often allows our opponent to play perfect.

However, here is a somewhat philosophical thought:
While our objective is to make our opponents make mistakes, sometimes the best thing we can do is make our opponents not let us make a mistake.

Anyone agree with this?

In the above example, if we check the flop and our opponent checks b/c he is behind (say AK) we made a mistake, but gain no information as he could also do this when ahead (AA, KK).

If we bet and our opponent calls/raises with a better hand (AA, KK), we made a mistake, but gain some information. I don't think are opponent is likely to call/raise with a worse hand, although sometimes he may float w/AK.

Blah.

R. Sherman

[Spanga7]

I disagree on a more fundamental level. Consider the situation:
Not very late in the tournament, playing out of position.
There is absolutely no reason to risk a significant portion of your stack at this stage with pocket 7s. Call, look for a set, fold otherwise. If you would seriously loose your entire stack with 7s on that flop to anybody with an overpair (9s or higher could have played the way he did), then you will not be a winning tournament player.
Also, the fact that the blinds are going up in 3 minutes is pretty irrelevant. In general, the play/strategy will alter when the blinds do, but not before they do.

[stjohnychan]

Well here's the thing about this hand. On the flop you're in ok shape if he's got just two overs. You're in bad shape if:

I. he had any pair or if he's stealing w/ A8
or II. suited connectors involving an 8.

On the turn if he had that 8 you're in worse shape then before and need to find a way to get out of the hand but if he didn't have the 8 then maybe you've got a shot at making even over-pairs fold.

So how do you find out? I would probably bet to do this. Sherman said this and you argued w/ him, but I think he's right. You said: [ QUOTE ]
If he holds AK I am hoping that he c-bets that I can checkraise

[/ QUOTE ] But he did C-bet and you didn't checkraise, because you didn't know if he had AK or not. You didn't play the way you said you would because you didn't know the things you needed to know, and the only way to know them was to bet. You also said: [ QUOTE ]
If you bet the flop and only get raised/called with hands that beat you, what is the point in betting?

[/ QUOTE ] Here the point would have been 1- to find out cheaply if you are facing a hand that beats you, and also to make overs (which you &amp; I put this guy on most likely) to pay you to draw). If this guy does have overs, when are you gonna charge him to ride the pony? After he hits them? That won't work. After he misses them? Won't work either...

So if you bet the flop-- say 300. If he folds, good you won a small pot w/ 2nd pair. If he raises your 300 on the flop then you are done w/ the hand. If he smooth calls you well thats a long story...

If he smooth called 300 on that flop and then the turn came an 8 you would have to decide if you wanted to go down swinging (either shoving, or check-raising like you did) or that you were done w/ the hand. You would have had a little more information though, because he had called the flop, and that might have been enough to slow you down and save you on the turn.

[rhizome]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, the fact that the blinds are going up in 3 minutes is pretty irrelevant. In general, the play/strategy will alter when the blinds do, but not before they do.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true. The blinds going up in 3 minutes is not that important for this particular hand, but not because of the reasons you state.

In this hand, the hero has an M of approximately 25. When the blinds go up, he will have an M of approximately 12. He will have to play slightly different when the blinds go up, but not that differently. In a 180 person SNG, one may not need to alter their play at all with a 1900 stack and blinds at either 25/50 or 50/100. However, if, for example, he had about 15 BBs and the blinds were about to double, then he should really play the hand as as if the blinds had already doubled and either shove preflop or fold. He can't flat call because if he has to fold after the flop, then he will be incredibly short stacked ((15-3)/2 = 6 bbs) in a few hands when the blinds double.

Thinking a few minutes ahead is very important -- especially in something like the turbo rebuy satellites. You can't just play every hand in a vacuum.

[rhizome]

Also, if I'm willing to call a pot sized bet on the flop, then I'd rather just make a pot sized bet into him. His calling or raising your flop bet gives you a lot more information on the strength of his hand than just seeing his flop bet.

On FTP, people make pot sized bets all the time (often for no good reason), but on stars, I tend to give them a little more credit.

[sledghammer]

His psb on the flop usually means a hand like JJ or TT that is glad no overs flopped, especially when he continues quite comfortably on the turn.

Donking this flop doesn't give you any information and completely defines your hand on a flop like this.