Suited Aces Vs. Suited Connectors

[iveyleague24]

What is the theoretical prospective difference between a hands such as A7s (For the sake of this discussion let's disregard s00ted aces with good kickers) and 98s. S00ted aces usually flop TPNK, nut flush draws, MOBPTK. Suited connectors and gappers usually flop staight draws, flush draws, combo draws, and weak pairs. So..this is like a mega-multipart question.

1. What the inherent strength difference between the two maximum s00ted connectors 54s and JTs and what conditions affect their strength?

2. '' '' A6s vs 98s '' '' ?

3. '' '' A2s vs. A9s '' '' ?

4. '' '' T7s. vs. 98s '' '' ?

5. '' '' 65s. vs. Q9s '' '' ?

I could list more, but these examples are uh; good. If you have your own theory (z) , feel free to post. w00t.

[infinity235]

I think SSHE says that high card strength is the most important feature a starting hand can have. Second priority is suitedness, third is connectedness.

So the difference between 54s and JTs is that if you don't improve to a straight or flush, you can still pair up, and then a pair of jacks or tens is more likely to win than a pair of fives or fours.

Same conditions apply to No. 2 and No. 5

No. 3: A2s is definitely weaker than A9s. even though A2 has the wheel feature, the nine kicker will play in most cases when you hit TP whereas the two won't. As you more often hit a pair than a wheel, A9s is way stronger.

T7s vs 98s is kinda tricky because they are so close in high card value and 98 is a zero-gap. So I guess 98s is stronger than T7s.

[PantsOnFire]

Just to keep my answer simple, I would generally say that I would prefer a suited A heads up and a suited connector in a multiway pot.

As well, I would prefer a suited connector in a raised pot since the suited A is so easily dominated. I would rather have 87s vs AA than Axs.

[Dru]

The problem that I have with suited As is that it seems to me that there are fewer hands to pay you off should you hit your hand. Unless you are in a silly weak game, most people arent playing many Kx suited, so a weaker flush is hard to find, and on the same note, if it is a strong game a very strong player may get away from his 87s and not give you enough cash to make playing them a +EV play unless you can make some really sick calls with TPWK or 2nd pair.
So as for suited connectors, I think there are more hands to pay you off because if you hit your straight, most middle suited connectors will create boards that give you a straight and a lot of legitimate two pair hands that could have stayed with you. Also if you flop two pair, IE A87 flop with you holding 87, you could disguise your hand and wait until the river if two rags come and you may get a large raise paid off by a big ace thinking youre trying to steal with a busted draw, IE 9T.

My 2c

- Dru

[infinity235]

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As well, I would prefer a suited connector in a raised pot since the suited A is so easily dominated. I would rather have 87s vs AA than Axs.

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Yes and no. Axs is a speculative hand and therefore can take down huge pots by making a flush and holding up. If the pot is raised and heads-up, you are not supposed to play Axs or suited connectors anyway.

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Unless you are in a silly weak game, most people arent playing many Kx suited, so a weaker flush is hard to find

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Flush vs flush situations are not very common (unless there is a four-flush on the board), so you should firing with the second-nut flush is +EV. As I mentioned above, Axs is stronger than Kxs not mainly because it makes a bigger flush, but because it makes a pair of aces.

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I think there are more hands to pay you off because if you hit your straight


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Yes and no. Straight are sometimes very well disguised (especially when you're using a one-gap to complete the straight), but a nut straight is not nearly as strong as a nut flush. You could make your straight and lose to a miniflush.

[Gonso]

It's looks like some here are talking from a LHE perspective, while others are thinking in terms of NLHE.

[6471849653]

It's all in situations and if it's limit or no-limit.

If the ace rates to be dominated one may be asking too much by cold calling with AXs, so it's not generally recommended at no-limit holdem, while if the situation is right one could do it with suited connectors (especially with no gaps though the difference with one gappers is not big) and small pocket pairs.

If there is a looser open-raiser then the AXs rate to be better in any game; at no-limit holdem it could win the showdown, while flopping a flush draw has a nice overcard to it (similar to having a draw plus a pair though it's only three outs) and it's tough for the opponent to take the heat. Making a two pair has the good side that it gets paid rather often if one plays "PLO" preflop.

Under the most messed up situations of no-limit holdem one could play "PLO" with it and raise the flop - the opponent has missed his ace (and king etc.), and maybe there's something like xxx or Jxx and the pocket pair under the J has a hard time to take the heat though some (top) players take it.

The whole story of suited connectors, small (and medium) pair and suited connectors has not been well published yet as far as no-limit holdem goes. There's some good stuff in the super system as long as one understands it still a little better and uses it in right situations. That book also has put it up of calling raises (reraises they can do in cases) with dominated suited hands, and what comes to the AXs in that situation I refer again to "PLO."

"JTs" is dominated more often than "54s" but it beats more pocket pairs. In some situations the JT will go under (like 54) the AK, AQ, while calling a raise/reraise with QTs, KJs and the like is all about (in right situations) of how well one plays "PLO," and like with AXs it should be good value to e.g. flop a draw with (two) high cards (it's a sucker play vs. tight until they figure to fold a big pair that most mere tight players may not do as once they get one they may not easily give it up especially if they know you are an action player).

It's also not so easy to bully one out if one will not be folding too often to raises and reraises when the opponent is not too tight, and so it makes it possible to play the aggressive way and there's not all that much the opponents can do about it. The idea is in the super system that has just got better with time as long as it's not a full ring game from much part and the opponents are not too tight so one can play poker too.

[ev_slave]

I've read in a theory paper (forgot where, sorry) that when all hands go to showdown, the value of suited connectors decline as you get to lower cards: AKs>KQs>....>98s>...>23s. I don't know where exactly A2s fell in there.

But when they adopted different strategies (allowed players to fold) then the EV of the different suited connectors was maxed at 87s. The reason was that 87 is dominated less often by cards that call, and because you'll have broadway cards interfering with your straight or lucking out against you on a 4-card straight board more than with 87.