KK -- how to sort out confusing action?

fretelöo · #1 01-24-2007, 08:14 PM

SB is an unknown. BB is 25/13/2 over 200 hands.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, UTG folds, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, BB caps, Hero calls, SB calls.

I had no idea what this meant. SB 3-betting didn't yet convince me fully that I was behind. BB call/capping was completely weird. someone trying to trap with 77/55? So I was pretty sure that I was behind BB and planned on folding the turn ui - which is in fact incorrect as even with SB calling, I only get 10:1 here. But anyway...

Turn: (10 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

... and he just calls. Huh? Since I originally wasn't convinced I was behind SB, I called as well. Correct?

River: (13 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero calls.

I really didn't like that 6, however after that kind of action, it was kinda hard to put anyone on 89s... So I made a crying call...

Final Pot: 15 BB

On a general note: That turn action somehow didn't make any sense. So what should I do in such a case? Scratch my previous ranges I put them on because they don't add up to their current play?
Go with what I thought on the flop and just assume they don't know how to play the nuts?
Not think anything anymore and just call down?

Aaron W. · #2 01-24-2007, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BB call/capping was completely weird. someone trying to trap with 77/55?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be my first reaction. However, based on the action to follow, it's probably 86. I've seen that play live a few times, when someone caps the flop to freeze everyone up on the turn. It's sort of a free-card cap plus possibly making you fold your hand on the flop. It's a terrible move, though.

[ QUOTE ]
On a general note: That turn action somehow didn't make any sense. So what should I do in such a case? Scratch my previous ranges I put them on because they don't add up to their current play?
Go with what I thought on the flop and just assume they don't know how to play the nuts?
Not think anything anymore and just call down?

[/ QUOTE ]

With a strong hand, I like to call down if it's looking cheap. TPWK gets mucked.

tyler_cracker · #3 01-24-2007, 08:28 PM

after the flop action, i think it's equally likely that BB has a big draw, that BB has a monster, or that BB is being retarded and capping because he likes to say Capuccino! (probably out loud -- even though he's sitting alone in the dark).

after the turn action, we can usually eliminate option 2.

it's good that you're practicing your hand reading, but sometimes opponents do things that don't make any sense for any hand they could possibly have. this is why we [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] playing against them.

i think you played this hand perfectly. you aren't sure you have the best hand, but you have the best hand often enough, so you call down.

bennyhana · #4 01-24-2007, 08:46 PM

when in doubt, call down.

that is some wierd [censored]. I'd proably call down too. no way am i folding.

Gib · #5 01-24-2007, 08:57 PM

This looks fine, usually I expect BB to have a something like a set most of the time but given his turn call we may still be ok. SB could be overplaying AJ/KJ/QJ here.

Bigka79 · #6 01-25-2007, 12:47 AM

yeah i think we have to call here on the river. the pot has gotten too big and if we lay it down i think we lost money. just my opinion though im kind of suprised no one has come in yet and said its a fold

martybonus · #7 01-25-2007, 10:17 AM

:grunch:

what on earth?

hrm. could BB be attempting some vague attempt at a bluff? if i'm reading the AF correct, probably not.

at .1/.2 (or similar) i get alot of cold callers which SCs, suited Aces, even rag kings or rag queens. granted BB's a little tighter than alot of players at this level, it's still strange. mis-click?

turn action from SB seems to be indicating a jack with a decent kicker which you have beat. i think the call here is fine given that BB quieted down immediately.

however, a case could be made for raising the turn. if he 3bets you, you know he's got that 89 you feared and it's time to walk away. but he might well fold if he's only playing top pair. a raise on the turn might have clarified your situation a bit more.

as played, calling the river seems fine.

shuinthehouse · #8 01-25-2007, 10:22 AM

OK, I'll be the first to suggest folding on turn. On flop SB bet and 3-bet into PF raiser. On turn SB bet into PF/Flop raiser and flop capper. That is a set almost always unless you know he's a maniac who would overplay AJ, so you are drawing to 2 outs almost always. It's 12 BB to you on the turn, and you know if you call you have to call the river, so you are getting at most 14-2 (assuming SB and BB contribute on river). Getting 7-1 for what is almost always a 22-1 shot is not +EV. Not sure I'm good enough to think of all this and fold the turn in the heat of action though.

kerowo · #9 01-25-2007, 10:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I'll be the first to suggest folding on turn. On flop SB bet and 3-bet into PF raiser. On turn SB bet into PF/Flop raiser and flop capper. That is a set almost always unless you know he's a maniac who would overplay AJ, so you are drawing to 2 outs almost always. It's 12 BB to you on the turn, and you know if you call you have to call the river, so you are getting at most 14-2 (assuming SB and BB contribute on river). Getting 7-1 for what is almost always a 22-1 shot is not +EV. Not sure I'm good enough to think of all this and fold the turn in the heat of action though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horrible. People loves the tptk here and on the turn BB shut down. Once BB does that I'm much more tempted to raise the turn than to fold. Calling down here is fine. If BB raises the turn then you can start thinking you are beat, but I'm not folding an over pair for one bet here without better reads than we have.

kaby · #10 01-25-2007, 10:30 AM

Raise turn, raise river, I think you still have the best hand.

SB has TPTK or something like that imho (two pair is also a possibility, but not very likely), and BB has indeed a drawing hand. If he has a set why would he want to earn so much small bets when the board is not looking scary at all?