QQ and board starts to get bad.

[akvsaq]

No reads.

I raise QQ first in from SB, BB calls.

Flop comes K77r.

I bet, BB calls.

Turn comes an A. (all rainbow)

I check, BB bets, I call.

River comes 4.

I check, BB bets, I call.

** I figured, there is no need to bet the turn, there aren't too many worse hands he will call me with so I opted to check and try to induce bluffs. How's my play?

[inferno]

I a bet/fold the turn and if he calls the turn c/f the river, mehhhhhh your likely to behind allot in these spots just dont think about it and dump it, its a small pot. The route you are taking is more expensive and doesnt provide any information, only some info that he has something. And by betting the turn you will give him a chance to do foldyfold.

[akvsaq]

Yes. By betting the turn, I give him a chance to fold but DO I REALLY WANT HIM TO FOLD? If he has a folding hand, I would rather check and induce a bluff.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
I a bet/fold the turn and if he calls the turn c/f the river

[/ QUOTE ]

What worse hands call?

I like the way Hero played it

[jstill]

id either ck fold the turn or ck call the turn and ck fold the river if thats ur plan.

I dont mind ur arguement for ck calling the turn, worse hands probably wont call and ud rather have 66 put in a bet on the turn than fold and ur unlikely to fold out a better hand (maybe KJ will ditch?).

But ck fold the river after u induce the turn bluff, if he has the type of hand u want him to have (a PP worse than urs), hes not valuebetting the river with it and if he called the flop with QT and fires 2 streets on this board with it or a worse PP after u call the turn, hes either a moron or has a sick read on ur line here and u in general and u should know either of those things somewhat.

There is the fear that blind battles tend to see more aggression but i think on this board ud be safe ck folding the river. Just dont overdue those lines and make ur play predictable without some sort of balance.

I think ur turn line loses some value once u ck call ck call, as ur often putting in 2 bets behind letting him make a super easy valuebet w/ Kx to ur death, and u only win 1 when ur ahead (and the pot is tiny).

[akvsaq]

jstill,

Great analysis. I guess on the river the reason I check/call is b/c I assume an unknown is a moron. In fact, I should assume an unknown is somewhat decent.

**BUT. Don't you think if I'm checking to induce a bluff, and in fact he is bluffing, don't you think he'll most likely bluff the river??

I would definately check/call both rounds vs an overaggressive player who likes to auto bluff. I'm sure you'd agree, right?

I guess the tough decision is playing the river and the difference between our decisions is you assume an unknown is decent and I assume an unknown is a moron.

This brings up an important question:
**When playing, do you assume an unknown is a moron or decent until you get some reads?

[inferno]

I dont think many players would bluff this turn

[akvsaq]

inferno, I'm actually thinking the opposite, especially online. From my experience, the vast majority of players auto-bet the turn if I check.

[jstill]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think many players would bluff this turn

[/ QUOTE ]

come on inferno, sb vs bb. i dont know if i need to say much more but....

sb has a huge range here raising as does bb calling preflop. when sb bets the flop its still basically any 2. when he cks the turn on KxxA its often with the intention of folding.

bb here knows this is sb vs bb and hed bet the flop with any 2, so hes liable to peel with alot of hands esp if hes the type of player who may think he can make plays at the pot later in position (many fit this description). Even if hes not, anything he called the flop w/ A hi, Kx an underpair or 2 unpaired cards is betting this turn when u ck.

akvsaq,

i generally assume an unknown is capable of misplaying hands terribly ie playing all wrong preflop, spewing stupidly with hands that should have gone into calldown a few bets sooner, peeling any 2 with no prospects. I really dont rule out a ton on their part. I generally assume they can think though (albeit often incorrectly) even if they dont understand the concepts about why we do things in poker, they usually possess some degree of postflop "awareness" in that obvious situations dont completely allude them.

On this board a good part of his range is Kx (only 2 Ks left tho and he mite raise the flop, probably atleast some % of the time esp if hes a donk), low PPs low A hi's and random unpaired cards that had bd draws or just wanted to peel/ play poker later in the hand. ck calls best against most of this range.

as for the river i think the hard part is giving up the split on occasion (the pot is small tho so its only 2bbs ud be giving up), becuz for me in villains shoes if i had K5s here i would just call the flop and it would be a very easy valuebet after u ck call the turn esp in a blind battle.

This portion may be arguablly giving an unknown too much credit/ trusting him too much. I dont think most unknowns on this board will bet again with a worse hand unless they are a total spew tard ( there really are no missed draws other than totally random flop peels and i think many of them give up after u ck call this board on the turn). This mite be thinking alittle more than villain would at the time, but if hes got like 65s and bets the turn after u call what is he hoping to move u off? wouldnt u just bet the turn if u had QJ? im sure u wouldnt ck call, if u ck call the turn does he think u have an underpair and fold enuff to justify his bluff?

if hes got an underpair, hes cking behind on the river probably close to 100% of the time, so we only have to worry about a bluff from a totally random unpaired hand he peeled.

There are situations where i ck call the turn and feel obligated to ck call the river once ive let him bluff once as i feel enough of his range is likely to bet again (I like it best with some solid read on his tendencies or recent metagame for me to feel like this is a solid play). Im not sure this is one of those spots tho.

If you think hed call the flop with any 2 here almost always esp on Kxx, often with the intention of trying to outplay u and will bet 2 streets with any 2 when u ck, then follow ur read and call the river. However, i dont think most fit this description enough to make the plan to ck call down 2 streets from the turn +EV.