How to beat PLO25

[Troll_Inc]

I see it as a public service to the game (or at least to readers of this forum) to provide strategies on how to beat a standard 10c/25c PLO game. Here is my contribution, which contains advice I've picked up on this forum, and some of my own conclusions based on research and recent play.

By standard PLO25 tables and opponents, I mean the loose passive game most frequently found at FT, Stars, UB, etc. Basic characteristics: very little preflop raising, almost no re-raises preflop, 3-4 people seeing the flops on average, and not a lot of bluffing post flop.

Before I discuss strategy, to beat this game you need to understand fully how to play pot limit poker and be able to count outs and translate this into knowing how much you can correctly call. For example, if you only have the nut flush draw you probably shouldn't call a pot sized bet. Knowing implied odds will be a bonus that can win you some more money. Lastly, you need to be able to read a board cold and know what the nut straight, full house, etc is. These skills are by no means easy or automatic, and may take a while to master. Depending on your bankroll, PLO2, 10, or 25 is probably a good place to hone these skills.

Strategy.
1. Starting cards. Pairs above 10, straight cards should be 678 or above, and this includes when you have an ace high flush draw too. Play A678s, but not A854s. We are talking top 20% hands or so, and lists are available elsewhere.

2. Position. You pretty much only want to play your very best cards from the small blind. So look for reasons to fold here. Big Blind you will play often because there isn't much raising in these games. If you get into a game with >30 pfr, then this strategy doesn't apply. EP only play premium hands. LP you can loosen up a tiny, tiny bit, but don't over do it.

3. That's probably advice #3, don't overdo any deception or aggression. Do everything about 1/3 of the time that you would think is appropriate, i.e. bluff very little, play king high flushes very little, raise from SB with 789Tds. Deviate very little from correct ABC poker.

4. Raising. Minimum raise or 3BB from the button or cutoff with premium hands. You can do this from early position with premium hands only occasionally if you have opponents that will try and take any pot on the flop if it is checked to them. (These players will identify themselves very quickly.) Basically what you want to do is get your opponents who play 70% of their hands to commit money incorrectly.

5. Flop play. "Tighten up" is what someone advised on this board. Words to live by in a loose passive (preflop) game. If there are 4 ppl seeing every flop, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that you need to hit a flop fairly hard.
I'm not saying you have to nut peddle, but it's pretty close.

6. Reading opponents based on their flop play. Much like small stakes no limit in a casino, you can never put an opponent on specific cards, just how much they value their hand. Of course you need to adjust this per each opponent, but this is very accomplishable. If you never see a villain play a single hand in the 3 orbits since you sat at the table and he reraises a full pot sized bet on the flop, you can be pretty certain he has the current nuts.
There is a lot of minimum and small betting on the flop; depending on the opponent, this might be flush draw or nothing at all, or the nuts. But each opponent is pretty predictable. If you find a table with opponents you can read, and they aren't loose and aggro, you need to find a new table. (How to beat maniac LAGs who don't know PLO very well or just want to dump their money isn't covered here.)

7. Chat. There is an inordinate amount of chatter that goes on at these tables. Often you can use this information to find out how good someone is, how well they know the game. Mimic the bad chat of bad players.

8. Mistakes. The basic strategy for beating this game is playing ABC poker waiting for someone to make a mistake. You'll have top set vs 2nd set. Someone will bet a flush draw, you'll reraise and they'll put themselves all in, they'll have a straight and you a flush, etc. This doesn't make for that interesting of a game, but I believe it is the best way.

9. Bluffing. You'll want to keep this to a minimum because many of these players will make bad calls (mistakes). You want them to call bad when they have a ten high flush and you an ace high. So how are they going to know when you run a naked ace bluff against them? Pick and choose your best spots to pick up an abandoned pot based on who your opponents are in the hand, their tendencies, your position, your table image, etc. Just don't do it very often.

Here are what my stats look like from today as an example of what I think you might expect for avg VPIP and pot sizes, and at any single table you should expect variation from the average. However, the strategy outlined here should provide less variance than playing more aggressively.





I doubt for an extended stretch that anyone could stay at 20bb/100. But I feel that researching, listening to people's advice, reviewing past hands, and thinking about what has worked in the past has led me (back) to this optimal strategy.

Another disclaimer, is that I'd never argue this is the _only_ strategy that works at these games. For example, there are certainly proven winners like The_Rempel who advocate more aggressive strategies. If you are a newer player, I'd certainly recommend trying your hand at a lot of different types of strategies. My ultimate goal is to be able to sit down anywhere at anytime at any game for which I'm properly rolled; identify a winning strategy, and then be able to execute it.

[Rianna]

Thank you, very nicely done. Very thoughtful of you to share. I appreciate yout hard work and thoroughly enjoyed this post.

Would like further comments please as to game site selection. I am finding especially the PL Omaha 8 to be generally terrible i.e. too little action not unlike many of the NLHE games. Can have the rush of your life and make very little etc.

Would GREATLY appreciate your opinion on this issue (and anyone elses please)

Thank you again.

[Silent A]

I agree with the gist of your post, but here are some thoughts on where I deviate from your method (the following is based on my experience at full table PLO at PokerStars):

1) Pre-flop tightness. The key, I believe, it to be significantly tighter than your opponents. There's no need to drop all the way down to 20-25%, so long as you recognize when you're playing with a borderline hand. I also disagree with your advice about not playing A567s. I would argue that just about any suited ace with some kind of straight potential (even if it's marginal) is a solid money earner in position assuming you can limp (or call a mini-raise).

2) Something you didn't specifically mention: buyin for the maximum everytime. Your opponents will make some gargantuan errors so you need to take full advantage. This is particularily true at the nano-levels like 0.01/0.02 on stars where you can buyin for up to 250BB ($5).

3) Bluff sparingly, but semi-bluff in position at almost every opportunity. Here is one of my favourite plays at these levels. It works like a charm at PLO25 (not as well at lower levels because players are too dumb, and not at higher levels because players are too smart):

You flop the nut-flush draw on a board like Q76. It's checked to you and you bet pot from the button. Lots of nice things can now happen. Obviously, everyone will often just fold. More often though 1 or 2 people will call with straight draws and/or a weaker flush draw. If the board pairs on the turn, a half-pot bet will win you the pot almost all the time (the one exception being if it gives your opponent trips). If you hit your flush you will often get significant action from lower flushes and even made straights. If the turn comes a blank you just play poker. The beauty is that if they hit their straight they will often check to you or bet small (like 1/3 pot or less).

This play is one of the main reasons I like playing suited aces in position so much.

4) Second barrel with the naked A bluff doesn't work very often. Most of the time, this bluff will either work immediately or never. At these levels people who are willing to call pot bets on a flush board without the nuts are ridiculously stubborn. Use this to your advantage when you actually have the nuts.

5) If you flop the nut straight with redraws, play it as agressively as possible against most opponents. Most of the time they will have no redraws whatsoever.

6) The size of your opponents bets usually indicate exactly how strong their hand is.

[Silent A]

I should add one more point.

Players at these levels don't understand multi-way draws very well. Try to encourage your opponents to think that you are a "chaser" when you call big bets with a 15+ draw to the nuts. It's in your interest to make them think you are the lucky donkey. Above all, resist the urge to educate them about what you did (this is one of my problems - I have this natural inclination to try to educate people).

[Rianna]

Guys!! The more I think about it, the more it seems that 'Game Selection, and Quality of the Game is by far the most important aspect of (online) play.

In other words, play Expertly and it does not matter if the games are bad.

I have played now for over 30 years, all games, all limits for a living. Have read the finest material on all games (and DO appreciate this post and it's fine material) but feel at least recently the poor quality of game Action has been so slow from what I have seen (I'm online everyday-night, often 10 hours a day, many sites) that I don't honestly understand how a GOOD hourly wage can be consistantly made at least curently. Maybe it because of Christmas. Or maybe I'm simply mistaken.

You guys are experienced and intelligent, I wish you would address this facet of the Omaha games. I'm really getting discouraged after 6 years of online play. Maybe i just don't get the action I used to. Seems like it's really drying up.

Waddya think please?

Thank you.

[Silent A]

Game selection for me is pretty simple. Loose play is the easiest mistake to take advantage of. At Stars I simply look for the tables with the highest %of players to see the flop and the highest pots, and I'd much rather play at a table with a high flop percentage and a small pot size than the other way around. Once on the table, I look for the usual fishes and if it's populated by nut pedllars or if I find myself playing to the right of a skilled LAG, I'm out.

This has worked nicely for me of late on the PLO50 tables at stars and I can consistently grind out about $5/hour per table. For now, this is plenty for me as it allows me to significantly add to my other income while playing only 1 or 2 hours a day. Hopefully, the recent boom of fishes at Stars will continue.

[Troll_Inc]

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Guys!! The more I think about it, the more it seems that 'Game Selection, and Quality of the Game is by far the most important aspect of (online) play.


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From the standpoint of maximizing your winnings, outside of being properly bankrolled for a certain buyin level, game selection is very, very important.

And let me state emphatically that I don't think the majority of the $25 max buyin PLO games (aka PLO25) are very good games. The reason for my current interest in playing 6max PLO25 was because it stuck in my craw that I used to be able to beat PLO25 but my overall winrate at at FT, PS's PLO25 had drifted to a negative number. I wanted to devise/follow a strategy to beat the game.

So again, PLO25 is not my best game and it isn't a very good game at all (for most people).

With that said, if you are just learning PLO and/or you don't want to commit that much money to playing, then you aren't going to have many choices for game selection because of skill-level and bankroll. PLO25 may then be your best choice.

[Troll_Inc]

6 Max vs Full handed.
I was playing loose passi ve 6 max only, but I do believe the same holds true for 9 max since it seems about the same number of people see each flop. Full handed you might need a little bit better hands to proceed though.

PREFLOP TIGHTNESS
I agree with you about preflop tightness 30% would work, and I've done that before. The reason why I tightened up is that:
1. I am playing 4-6 tables at a time.
2. Playing more hands increases variance (for me), and often I start at 30 and drift to 40-50 especially if I have a mark in my site. So if I start at 20 then often I might move to 30. And I find that when I start playing 20-30% type of hands with danglers and low pairs, I start to get myself in trouble - it also leads to harder decisions, i.e. does this donkey really have top set this time? So in summary, I agree you can play at 30% and win, it just makes it more difficult and I have no information that it increases my winrate.

STRAIGHTS
I think I said not to play A854s. I would probably play A765s, but not 7652s. I really want to have 3 cards at top of 678, if you do this you are only giving up 3 nut straights (A-5, 2-6, 3-7). Again, this is probably a finer point, you are right you could make money wtih 765, but by not playing it how much money are you leaving on the table?

Also, I don't think I included to not push any flopped straights that have 2 flushes in them. In early position this is a check-call for me, and in position, I would call a raise before me or bet out if it is checked to me.

BUYIN
Buyin for the maximum is fine, but I see advantages to buying in for $10-15.
1. This allows you to let a LAG double you up. And then this might tilt him to get his money back, and he can double you again. Often they don't play well vs smaller stacks, they bet at some pot when you just flopped top set - and it "isn't that much more" for them to see if you have it or chase their flush draw. Often you can triple up in these situations.
2. Allows for easier decisions when you have less information on players.
3. Allows you to occasionally use Rolf's strategy if you have one player raising a bit.
4. If you start with $10 and double up in one hour, that's 20bb/hr, and >20 bb/100 which is enough.

But I think this is also a finer point and probably doesn't matter much one way or the other. Perhaps opponents will play more poorly when you are a medium stack or perhaps you will have fewer opps as a large stack but will score more.

SEMI-BLUFFING
Afer I posted, I was thinking "what did I leave off". I totally agree with you, if a pot is checked to you and you have a good draw bet it if you have fold equity. If you have less fold equity or you have checkraisers or you just have a flush draw, I think I just check behind or maybe a small bet (small bets are very frequent at this level so it won't look suspicious.)

SMALL BET MISTAKE
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6) The size of your opponents bets usually indicate exactly how strong their hand is.

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100% true. Many opponents at this level underbet made (but vulnerable hands, like straights) and let you know exactly how good their hand is. It's ridiculous, but often minimum bet = pair or overpair, a little bit more means TTP or flush draw, etc.
To wit, I will not go after marginal situations, like going after JUST a flush draw when they bet half pot, but as you point out villains way underbet pot (like $1 into $5 pot when they are OOP) and you have a good nut draw or two. I have been taking the really good sales, and passing on those with just small marginal value.

Alternatively, every single time I have the nuts in position or out, I bet full value every single time. Unless it's something like a raised pot preflop, and 5 people see a flop and you are in SB, and you are 90% certain someone will bet behind you. Other than that level of certain, just bet away because this game is about them making mistakes and you want to make sure that when you are holding the nuts, their mistake is as large as possible.

[Silent A]

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PREFLOP TIGHTNESS
... Playing more hands increases variance (for me), and often I start at 30 and drift to 40-50 especially if I have a mark in my site. So if I start at 20 then often I might move to 30. And I find that when I start playing 20-30% type of hands with danglers and low pairs, I start to get myself in trouble - it also leads to harder decisions, i.e. does this donkey really have top set this time? So in summary, I agree you can play at 30% and win, it just makes it more difficult and I have no information that it increases my winrate.

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I forgot to reply to this. One of the primary reasons to play marginal hands is to enhance the action you get with your better hands. In fact, it's often in your interest to play some -EV hands if this loosens up your image enough to earn you more +EV on your bigger hands. A similar (and probably significantly stronger) agrument can be made for raising with some -EV hands since this can dramatically increase the action you get with your best hands.

This comes from a player who knows he should raise far more often.

[Troll_Inc]

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I forgot to reply to this. One of the primary reasons to play marginal hands is to enhance the action you get with your better hands. In fact, it's often in your interest to play some -EV hands if this loosens up your image enough to earn you more +EV on your bigger hands. A similar (and probably significantly stronger) agrument can be made for raising with some -EV hands since this can dramatically increase the action you get with your best hands.

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This may be true against opponents are paying attention and understand what they are doing.

I think that you and Piiop are overthinking this. We are not talking about a discussion of playing against good PLO players, if you find players that are doing more than looking at their own cards (and playing them incorrectly) find another table.

And again, same disclaimers - more than one way to beat PLO25 and this is a small point I believe, i.e. I can't imagine there being a great overall difference in EV here (either way).