Abstract Theory Crazy Thinking-type Post

[FoxwoodsFiend]

So I think playing oesd-type draws out of position is fairly easy. You bet-3-bet or c/raise all-in is the standard line. However, I find it harder to play these hands with position. Assume villain has a big overpair, as that's what you're gunning for with these types of hands.
For example, today I called a raise in position w/effective stacks of 2200 at 10/20 NL w/K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Villain bets 145 into 160 pot.
I feel like all options suck:
1) Raising a standard amount gives villain a chance to get it in. But it also gives him a chance to call and see a safe turn, negating a big advantage of these types of hands (the flop equity). A safe turn and a bet from villain negate a huge amount of your equity from this hand.

Some may say this is no different from leading into a pfr OOP, but since the preflop raiser is more likely to raise a lead then call a raise out of position I believe that the raise in position makes it a lot harder to get your chips in on the flop.

2) Calling. I hate calling in general and here it seems particularly bad.

3) Raising a big amount. This always smells of a bluff so bad that I think the FE is minimal. And don't tell me "so play your real hands this way." I do. And I always get called by overpairs. The point is I play my sets that way because they get paid off, so I shouldn't play my semi bluffs this way because they get called.

So what do you guys do? For some reason this situation hasn't come up for a while for me and when it did, I got very confused.

[Yeti]

You seem strangely worried at the thought of getting allin with OESFD v an overpair.

[aggie]

Option 3....It's not like getting called here is a problem. And while i agree FE is limited because it smells fishy villian will still fold when he's just making a continutation bet. There are also many scenarios where you get called and are a sizable favorite. I just don't see a problem with the "raising a large amount" option.

[ QUOTE ]
But it also gives him a chance to call and see a safe turn, negating a big advantage of these types of hands (the flop equity). A safe turn and a bet from villain negate a huge amount of your equity from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A big flaw in your option 1 logic is that villian is unlikely to know exactly which cards are safe....For example, a Q probably doesn't look all that dangerous to villian but it makes you the nuts

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
You seem strangely worried at the thought of getting allin with OESFD v an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

was thinking the same thing.

its nice to be first in with those hands, but its not that bad to call an all in.

[edge]

The whole point is that you don't know Villain has a big overpair. I raise K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] here, as well as a set, underpair, overcards, air, etc. to make him pay if he wants to see the next card. He doesn't know that I'm on a big draw and that certain cards are safe, so he's forced to guess whether or not his overpair beats my hand, and whether or not the turn card helps me. If we could see each other's cards, all options suck, but we can't. If you raise and he pushes, it's an easy call, but it isn't necessarily an easy push from his perspective with many of his possible hands.

A hand like JJ or A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] actually has quite good equity against your hand, but a push from A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] will be fairly rare. It's much better for you to take it down on the flop with the money in the pot plus his bet than race against JJ, so raising this big draw as well as a set lets you do that. It's just a big balancing act.

[El Diablo]

FF,

I call in spots like this all the time. I also raise. This is a spot where you have a hand so big that it doesn't really matter what you do.

[Ansky]

On this board your hand is so strong that even if you raise, and he 3 bets thats a good thing. Isn't that reason enough to raise? Also, if he does have an overpair, you aren't getting paid much if you hit by just calling, and he's reasonably good.

All of the above is very obvious I realize, but I don't really see any reason to not raise because of this.

[creedofhubris]

[ QUOTE ]
Option 3....It's not like getting called here is a problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is a problem if there's exactly one pot-sized bet left on the turn, because then if it blanks and villain pushes, hero's money goes in with no edge.

Now, most villains don't do that, they come over the top on the flop or they check the turn, both of which are fine. It's only the tough ones who will stop & go that are the problem.

Still, if the money were shallower then raising would be clearly the move. Here, I think either raising or calling is good.

[aggie]

[ QUOTE ]

It is a problem if there's exactly one pot-sized bet left on the turn, because then if it blanks and villain pushes, hero's money goes in with no edge.

Now, most villains don't do that, they come over the top on the flop or they check the turn, both of which are fine. It's only the tough ones who will stop & go that are the problem.

Still, if the money were shallower then raising would be clearly the move. Here, I think either raising or calling is good.

[/ QUOTE ]

When i look back at the numbers i realize that this is a pretty good point. So yea, a standard raise is probably better.

I hate calling here because i think it's important to give villian a chance to fold on the flop in this type of situation. As a matter of fact, i'm a little suprised by anybody who thinks calling is an acceptable option.

Edited to add: This sounds kind of arrogant and that's not my intention. I'm just suprised to see Diablo and Creed saying that a call here is okay...Anybody care to elaborate? To me it seems that a raise is infinitely better and i can't see myself ever calling.

min raise