LL online stud

[Frond]

Nothing earth-shattering here, but I have been playing online low limit stud off & on now for about a year or so and it just now hit me: It plays much like low limit holdem in that there is often much chasing and you often have to show down a big draw hand to take the pot. I think I knew this all along but just now made the analogy since I started playing LHE seriously about 6 monhths ago.

Q: Do some of you who play at this the lower limits of stud adjust a bit and play your 3 flushes and 3 str8s a bit farther than you might at a higher limit? I do a bit but I don't go crazy with it. I still tend to play mostly tight-agg but I will play some additional draw hands farther as long as the cards are really live.

[Frond]

no comments or ?

[MRBAA]

It depends. In general, though, stud has one more big bet street to get paid on, so a loose call on fourth against bad players with a live three flush + baby pair or two overs is often fine.

[The Worm]

I go for the multi way pots with these hands.

[Brad1970]

Here's my .02 worth.

For the most part, low limit tables will be full of inexperienced stud players who will chase you down with all kinds of garbage. In this spot, I would play TAG & hope for the best. But, be prepared for suckouts. In a game where nobody folds & you have 7 people chasing you to the river..somebody's gonna catch you!!! That applies to any low limit game.

Also, at these levels, a large percentage these donkeys do not understand the nuances of stud, nor do they want to. One poker game is the same as another poker game to them.

[Jeff76]

I think the structure here matters a lot more than people realize. I started playing low limit stud on UB and it was VERY loose. Thing was, the ante is HUGE on UB at the lower levels, so it is correcty to play a little looser. The effect of this is that often my opponents chasing BECAME accidently correct because of the huge pots. I was able to kill this game fairly easily: I played a LOT of loose starting hands because I knew I had implied odds (they ALWAYS paid off) and by folding draws that weren't panning out. Drawing hands were HUGE in this game; aces almost never took down the pot unimproved.

Then I switched to Full Tilt for a while; their structure is a little tighter (still very loose, but I didn't know that at the time- that it could considered "tight" by comparison is a testament to just how loose the UB structure is). Here I basically broke even. I had to tighten up a bit, but I tightened up too much and had difficulty beating the antes.

Finally I moved to Stars because I had a big (for me) tournament win there. The structure is MUCH tighter by comparison (their ante at the .50/1 is LESS than UB's ante at .25/.50). I tried my same game and got absolutely killed. People didn't pay off my big hands, and my big draws didn't come in enough to be profitable. This is obvious to me now since I've studied the game a bit more and understand the effects of the structure. I was making -EV gambles early on excpecting that I had implied odds, and they just weren't there.

The players at Stars are not near as loose as those on FT or UB, and I'm guessing the reason for this has a lot to do with the structure. Not that people are adjusting for the structure, but that UB and FT let loose players lose less money than the Stars structure does (because they'll more often be playing accidently correct), so they can stick around longer.

At any rate, I found the Stars game to be more fun (check/raising means something and there is some thought invovled beyond "I have a big draw and the pot is big enough") so that's where I've been playing. There are still plenty of chasers (which we WANT), but the game plays tighter than on the other sites. I play VERY tight on Stars and do very well. Aces often win unimproved and drawing hands have less value. You have to pay attention to the number of people in the pot and other table dynamics.

So I guess the thing is, know the game your in understand and when it's correct to chase and when it's not. This doesn't have as much to do with your opponent's chasing tendencies as the size of the pot, and the size of the pot starts with the antes (and bring ins).

A recent example of this: My FT account is getting a little low on funds, so I figured I'd go try to earn some money at the Stud tables. Thing was, I played my normal tight game and barely got out even (had to make quads and get a guy with Aces up to cap the river with me to do it) because I was playing too tight. I am not good at switching up my game like this yet, so I'm pretty much sticking to the Stars structure until I become a better player who can mix up my game to match the structure and players.

[Brad1970]

Jeff,

I agree with just about everything you said regarding Full Tilt. I play at Stars only on occasion, so I really don't have much of an opinion about the players or the ante structure.

Let me point out one thing about stud at FT. When you talk about low limits, I assume you mean .25/.50 & .50/1 since that's quoted in your previous post. I have played those limits a couple of times & I must say that the caliber of player at those tables is alot different than at 5/10 & above. It's the wild wild west at these low levels!!! Like I said in my previous post, these are mostly newbies & calling stations who play every hand & don't fold. To me, it's the bowels of stud at FT. IMO, many of these people have no idea what they're doing. The 1/2 & 2/4 tables aren't much better.

Also, from your desciption, it sounds like Stars may have more solid, knowledgeable stud players than FT. Afterall, FT markets itself, IMO, as all holdem, all the time. Most of the player base probably doesn't even know they offer stud.

[Jeff76]

[ QUOTE ]
I assume you mean .25/.50 & .50/1 since that's quoted in your previous post.

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah, I really should have said "micros". But in terms of "loose players chasing" and how to adapt, I figured my experience here is pretty relevant to OPs question.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, from your desciption, it sounds like Stars may have more solid, knowledgeable stud players than FT.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes, this is my experience. There are still soft spots, though, and they are easy to isolate. Also, many of the "good" stud players aren't nearly agressive enough so they are easy to take advantage of.

Last night I played my first 1/2 game at Stars and there was an EXTREMELY LAGish player. At one point he capped 6th AND the river with trips against an OBVIOUS full house (board=JJ44 after a re-raise on 3rd). He would bet to the river on any hand and the rest of the table feared him. I simply waited on hands and called him down light to make easy money.

When he was gone the JJ44 player said "whew, I'm glad he'd gone- he kept sucking out". What that player forgot was that no other player on earth would have paid off his full house like that guy had.

Moral of the story: Stars has a tight game with better players, but most aren't great, and exploiting the soft spots is fairly easy. But exploiting it is far different that Full Tilt or UB, at least at the micro level.

[Brad1970]

Hmmm...maybe it's time to re-evaluate my efforts over at Stars. I just do not like PokerStars's software. That's the main thing that keeps me from playing there more.

[Frond]

Good replies everyone. Good info that I can use for sure.

Pot size is a very basic thing that I overlook at times in any game. Sometimes I think we(me at least) get so wrapped up in our "own hand" that we forget a lot of basics like pot size, how many players in the pot, odds etc. Right now for stud, I have been focusing mostly on upcards & live cards. From my limited play of 3-6 stud8 live, people aren't keeping track of exposed cards at all at this level.