short one

[Jay.]

i should probably stop just auto-piloting this hand.

this hand becomes a lot easier when even the smallest read is included so for this hand we'll assume the player is an unknown.

i raise AT 6m 30/60 utg+1 both blinds call.

Qs7s5h

i bet sb calls.

turn: 2c.

i bet.

yea, nothing more to it, bet and free showdown or check and induce? this is also kinda directed at 30/60 because i'll induce more at the higher limits when their turn checkraises become more frequent, but here they are somewhat rare.

so yea lots of variables in deciding the best play, but what do you think your standard should be?

[Surf]

Jay,

You're right, reads make this pretty easy.

That said, I work with the information I have. I'd expect him to be a not-that-good player, since the type that coldcall an EP raise in the SB are the type that like to peel flops with gutters or backdoors, etc. This makes me more likely to bet the turn and check the river, rather than checking and calling, because I'd prefer he fold a 10out hand like 98, etc.

I haven't played 30/60 and I don't know what game you are referring too, but if turn c-r's are common enough that bet-folding kind of sucks, cking and calling becomes much more attractive.

Surf

[Jay.]

[ QUOTE ]
This makes me more likely to bet the turn and check the river, rather than checking and calling, because I'd prefer he fold a 10out hand like 98, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well here you may not want him to fold his 10 out hand if you knew he was bluffing the river 100% of the time.

It's really close on the 10 out hands but, it's not close for the 3 out hands that i'm seeing peel a lot atm, like A9 A8 with or without backdooor draw and then the backdoor draws like KJ or sometimes dominated T9 too. Say hands like those average 5 outs, the cost of me checking if i knew he held those would be 1/9th of the pot, so 0.44 bbs, so i can make that up if they are bluffing the river or calling the river with hands they would have folded the turn with (a9) > 44%.

On the other side i lose some value from hands that would have called the turn but wont bluff/call the river, flush draw, but i think this is a very small amount since flush draw so often raises the flop in these games and it so often bluffs the river anyway and you make that bet up.

This is why i think it's closer than i always thought it was. I don't think this is the perfect hand example for it, as it was 3 way adding an extra 1bb to the pot, increasing the cost of the check behind and there are more 10 out hands on this board than some other boards.

This ignores c/r considerations as it's rare for it to happen w/ a ahnd i beat so doesn't benefit one line or the other and ignores metagame of they'll start peeling the flop wider, as 1 i don't think many are good enough to see someone check behind the turn w/ ace highs so start peeling lightly and 2, that may even be a benefit to checking behind the turn! since they still may hang themselves w/ river bluffs.

[Surf]

Jay,

If your opponent will consistently bluff the river in spots like these that's something we'd like to encourage because we can profitably exploit it.

I do prefer that he folds his 10out hand, because sometimes i'm the one paying off, sometimes he wont bluff b/c of a scare card (or say I hit an A and he decides to give up) etc, I'd rather just save the pot the 10 in 45 times or make him pay the bet. As you said this isn't the best example but the spirit of it is good.

Surf

[Fianchetto]

I think the standard line should be bet turn/check river.

Otherwise, observant opponents will catch on that you often check the turn when you've missed. They may start peeling light against you knowing that you'll often let them see the river for free.

[mute]

Agree with what's been said so far. Another argument for betting the turn is, that you will sometimes get an extra bet in if you hit the river. So I think the benefits outweigh the risk of being checkraised.

[DeathDonkey]

When I find myself checking this turn and calling a river bet a lot, I find myself losing at poker, with disgusting went to SD / won at SD stats, and make my opponents more confident and willing to peel against me.

-DeathDonkey

[Dane S]

[ QUOTE ]
When I find myself checking this turn and calling a river bet a lot, I find myself losing at poker, with disgusting went to SD / won at SD stats, and make my opponents more confident and willing to peel against me.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey DD, are you ever betting and calling down turn raises? About how often if so?

[sweetjazz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I find myself checking this turn and calling a river bet a lot, I find myself losing at poker, with disgusting went to SD / won at SD stats, and make my opponents more confident and willing to peel against me.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey DD, are you ever betting and calling down turn raises? About how often if so?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without putting words in DD's mouth, I am sure he calls down his share of turn raises. I guess you are specifically asking about A high calldowns when the board is semi-coordinated so the villain could be semibluffing a draw.

Reads are important, but the typical player does not semibluff checkraise the turn often enough to make this hand a calldown without a read. Given how online games play, a strategy of consistently check-raising turns with air is going to make most people broke pretty quickly. It is an expensive bluff to make and wins a pretty small pot. So it's unlikely that you will find many players who are overdoing this play a lot, as they are likely to have gone broke long before you sit down.

Of course, there are some players that make these bluffs often enough to warrant some light calldowns and yet are tricky enough not to overuse the play to the point of making it a hugely -EV play. Be very wary if they are tricky enough to adjust to your play. If you start consistently bet/calling down turns with A high, they can and will exploit this by greatly reducing their bluffing frequency and valueraising hands like 97 or even 44 on Q965 boards.

It is okay to check behind the turn some of the time here, and sometimes call, sometimes fold based on what hits the river, but you should be betting a good amount of the time here. When raised you should usually be folding but sometimes (rarely) calling down. Then as you add specific reads, that might change your frequencies significantly.

[Dane S]

Thanks SJ. Exactly the discussion I was looking for and you said it very well.