"Accidentally" flopping a hand from the blinds

[Tomke]

I'm beginning to realise that the following situation is quite a leak in my game. I'm playing 25NL 6max.

I'm holding a hand in the big or small blind, there is no preflop raise and I check/complete SB after a few people have limped. Now I flop top pair, with a somewhat weak kicker. So there I am, sitting with top pair, weak kicker, out of position with 3 to 5 people to act behind me.

My usual play is to make a pot sized bet and see what happens. Problems arise when I get a caller though. I often end up check/folding the turn, especially when turn is a scarecard. Can anyone advice me on a better line?

Let me clarify with some example hands.

Hand 1

I'm holding K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the small blind

2 people limp, I complete SB, BB checks.

Flop is K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I'm first to act and bet the pot, 2 folds, 1 PF limper calls.

Turn is Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero ????

Hand 2

Hero is SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

2 people limp, hero completes SB, BB checks.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero is first to act and bets pot, UTG limper calls

Turn is 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Hero ???

These were actual hands I played (I had to write them down myself since theres no converter for the site I played them at. Let's assume hero and villain had 100BB stacks in each hand). I feel I'm spewing too much money/leaving too much money on the table in these kind of situations. How should such hands be played?

[supane]

Just check fold both hands unless they bet small. In hand one he could have turned trips and in hand two the flush hit.

[avfletch]

You really need some information about how villain plays. If he's a habitual drawer and there's a reasonable draw to be had then your hand has some show down value (assuming the draw doesn't hit) and you should try to get it there. If villain is reasonably solid then he probably has you beat and c/f is the way to go.

Be more inclined to bet out to protect your weak top pair when its kings than when its aces. Far too many people limp any ace and call down when they pair it. That's really good for you when you're raising premium aces in position but sucks when you're probing for info OOP with a weak ace.

[degenrat]

better examples would be when the turn comes harmless 6 offsuit. then what.

the 2 hands posted are imo standard folds.

[Ra_]

My line on both hands would be to check/lead turn or check/fold to pot sized bet.

Obvioulsy a little player dependend.

[Tomke]

I ended up check-folding those 2 hands. So is leading flop and check-folding turn the standard line here?

And indeed, I should have included some example hands of these situations:

- When the turn is a blank and there are no obvious draws, should we lead turn?
- When turn is a blank and there's a draw out there, we should definatly bet turn again, shouldnt we? Another pot sized bet, or should we try to control pot size here?

[Freelancer]

[ QUOTE ]
I ended up check-folding those 2 hands. So is leading flop and check-folding turn the standard line here?

And indeed, I should have included some example hands of these situations:

- When the turn is a blank and there are no obvious draws, should we lead turn?
- When turn is a blank and there's a draw out there, we should definatly bet turn again, shouldnt we? Another pot sized bet, or should we try to control pot size here?

[/ QUOTE ]
Depending on the villain I might c/c or bet 2/3 pot trying to control the pot and going for a check down on the river. I also do this with draws and occasionally with monsters so it means fairly little in terms of playing your hand face up.

Fletch also made a good point that you should be more reluctant to put money in a pair of Aces than Kings.

If there is a draw out there checking to control pot size is fine, I'm trying to protect my chips here not my stack. If villain bets Im calling a reasonable amount (say up to pot bet) unless he never bets with a draw than I'm check/folding.


My points are bit all over the place, so good luck figuring it out. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Antinome]

I lead these hands sometimes and check them sometimes. depends on the table, and the number of limpers, and what their position was. Like in hand 2, UTG will often have a hand like ATo that he knows he shouldn't play, but can't fold. That same inability to fold will be useful later on, but here it works in his favor. So I check fold that hand. I can't tell you what I'd do in Hand 1, because you gave no reads and no positions, but I should mention that some of my nicest wins happen when I lead out in limped pots with middle pair and a hand that is likely to improve, like a gutshot or a backdoor flush draw.

In general I like leading out, being aggressive, and giving opponents the opportunity to fold. TPBK is not by any means the low end of my range there, and certainly nowhere near the high end. Being OOP sucks, but it sucks worse when you are check/calling or your hand range is predictable.

[hra146]

I know it sounds stupid, but it has bothered me for a long time (and I really didnt wanna open a thread for this).

Do you ever/always/sometimes complete with Axo ? (x being a wheelcard) ?

[degenrat]

sometimes