Do you call this bet holding 3rd nuts?

rider_1 · #1 10-20-2006, 11:31 PM

This is early in the 2nd hr of the $5R on stars. Read on Villian is that he is straight-forward player capable of making a decent bluff. But in this hand I have a very hard time believing that he would bet into me here with less than a Q-high flush. However, I had stolen a good pot from him earlier and I was also playing a bit loose.

What made me think he had the heart draw on the turn was the speed with which he called my turn bet (lightening fast, like 10 millisecond fast). In hindsight, my turn bet seems a bit small, but I wanted to get paid off.

What do you guys think?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG (t2599)
UTG+1 (t24465)
MP1 (t21473)
Hero (t18782)
CO (t13925)
Button (t8884)
SB (t9335)
BB :#A500AF(Villian)/ (t12309)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero calls t200, 3 folds, BB :#A500AF(Villian)/ checks.

Flop: (t500) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villian checks, Hero bets t300, Villian raises to t800, Hero calls t500.

Turn: (t2100) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villian checks, Hero bets t1200, Villian calls t1200.

River: (t4500) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Villian bets t2200, Hero????

mikeJ · #2 10-20-2006, 11:45 PM

Probably not, villain is rarely bluffing here. In order to be able to call, you need to think he is value betting an 8h or lower.

rider_1 · #3 10-20-2006, 11:50 PM

Yah, I didn't even stop to think that the next highest heart is the 8h, LOL, ok that sort of changes things here; see, I'm learning!
You're right, there is the Ah, Qh, 8h and lower, so basically I'd only be calling here to pick off a bluff because no one in their right mind is betting out here with 8h, right?

I will post the obvious result a bit later...

mikeJ · #4 10-20-2006, 11:52 PM

Some people might bet out the 8h and I don't think it's that bad of a play if he think you'll call w/o a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in your hand. Question is, how does he get to the river w/ only the 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or a lower [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

rider_1 · #5 10-20-2006, 11:57 PM

See, my line of thinking is he C/Red me with a good K here, I think he'd likely lead into me with a small K, maybe not though

mikeJ · #6 10-21-2006, 12:01 AM

Actually, ignore my post about lower hearts, didn't realize this was an unraised pot. Preflop, limping is fine, but you can definitely raise preflop w/ these relatively deep stacks.

rider_1 · #7 10-21-2006, 12:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, ignore my post about lower hearts, didn't realize this was an unraised pot. Preflop, limping is fine, but you can definitely raise preflop w/ these relatively deep stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yah, I will raise with this hand more than 50% of the time in this situation, sometimes I limp, table conditions dictate.
this was a passive table and I felt that I would only make a bigger pot if I raised (i.e. ppl would call based on their hand, not based on table conditions)

FortunaMaximus · #8 10-21-2006, 01:07 AM

Ah5h, Ah5x are two hands I would worry about here, given desc of Villain. That'd make me fold, and those wouldn't necessarily be played for a raise PF with relatively deep stacks.

I don't see KxQh raising flop then simply cold-calling turn often enough here, and that holding would be folding that to a stronger turn bet.

And he could be value-betting other hands. I can call here with that range, figuring I still have ~70BB behind.

Why didn't you raise PF? I mean, 200 or 600 with a 18k stack isn't really significant.

nath · #9 10-21-2006, 01:08 AM

bet more on the turn
call the river getting like 3:1, you may be beat, but i'm sure this is a bluff more than 25% of the time or whatever

[ QUOTE ]
this was a passive table and I felt that I would only make a bigger pot if I raised (i.e. ppl would call based on their hand, not based on table conditions)

[/ QUOTE ]
yes but by not raising you don't offer the blinds an opportunity to fold and you a chacne to pick up the post uncontested.

rider_1 · #10 10-21-2006, 01:15 AM

So, the consensus is to raise with this hand, what are the advantages/disadvantages of this?

Obv, raising shows strength (can cont. bet flop, etc), also gives me an opportunity to win pot uncontested.

My reasoning with limping with this hand is that I' inviting action, I want more ppl in the pot with a hand like this (suited connectors), don't I? This way I have a chance to win a huge pot rather than a small one. This isn't really a disadvantage to raising preflop, I just figured I'd make more off my hand by limping preflop.

Comments?