$200nl: very deep, attempting to get more value from interesting river

snowbank · #1 10-16-2006, 06:15 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($64.30)
Hero ($1202.80)
BB ($200)
UTG ($643.65)
MP ($183.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $2, 1 fold, Button calls $2, Hero raises to $13, 1 fold, UTG calls $11, Button calls $11.

Flop: ($41) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: ($41) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

River: ($41) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $25, UTG raises to $104, Button folds, Hero raises to $225

I viewed the villian as 'not very good.' I didn't think that he would call pf with 63 or A3. The table I was at everyone seemed to play extremely passive and never bet their hands until the river [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] haha seriously. So I decided to be like them this hand and wait for the river for fun. Onto the river decision... He could potentially have QQ here, based on it seems no one at Stars likes money, and never want to get value out of their hands for some reason. This was the first time I had ever played with him, but from what I remembered of him I thought he was not very good, and would possibly have trapped a Q here(AQ/KQ). Most likely I thought he had 44, 22, or 55 and had trapped me with a lower set. The reason is because he limped pf, and probably would have raised with AQ or QQ hands. He could also be really wacko and have AA/KK here, but I put him on a lower set.

Thoughts on river play?

KingGordy · #2 10-16-2006, 06:17 AM

I would sometimes bet the flop, but I would almost always bet the turn. If you put him on a lower set you should seriously just shove.

zatacka · #3 10-16-2006, 06:42 AM

Not very good = loose?

I dont like your small raise, i would make it 320+

and btw i would also bet turn

Spy Dog · #4 10-16-2006, 06:49 AM

You need to bet this flop. You've built up FE with your flop raise and this is about the best flop you could hope for when you miss. Q42 is about as bad as it gets since people are much less likely to call a preflop raise with Qx than Kx or Ax.

If you take straights out of the equation then you probably need to push the river after he raises. More combos of 55/44/22 than QQ and he's calling your push with all of them. He's always 4-bet/pushing QQ, but may wimp out with 55/44/22. So you always lose the same amount versus QQ whether you push or raise less, but you will more versus 55/44/22 when you push than when you put in a less than push raise.

Dan Bitel · #5 10-16-2006, 08:09 AM

I check this flop a decent % of the time.

I probably fire on the turn almost always though.

On the river, I think you need to raise more. I might even consider pushing, depending on if you think he can fold 22/44/55 or not

Fly · #6 10-16-2006, 08:44 AM

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I check this flop a decent % of the time.

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Planning on doing what if UTG bets (rest of the hand, not just flop)

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On the river, I think you need to raise more. I might even consider pushing, depending on if you think he can fold 22/44/55 or not

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This is spot on. Why are you making such a tiny 3bet when you suspect villain has such a huge hand? Given the way this hand was played I don't think villain is going to give you much credit especially if he's holding a monster.

terp · #7 10-16-2006, 09:10 AM

if you're willing to go all the way with this hand (which i think is nuts, but whatever) you need to at least make a hefty river raise if you're going to reopen the betting - if you're going to stack off to A3/63, at least get as much value as possible from sets and two pair.

Black winter day · #8 10-16-2006, 09:49 AM

I could check the flop, but bet the turn for sure, as everyone said.
I am reraising this to 250, and puking if he raises allin.
I am probably paying him off if he has A3.
Very little chance he played QQ like this.

Kovner · #9 10-16-2006, 10:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
if you're willing to go all the way with this hand (which i think is nuts, but whatever) you need to at least make a hefty river raise if you're going to reopen the betting - if you're going to stack off to A3/63, at least get as much value as possible from sets and two pair.

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Good post. You lose the same amount (villain's stack) when he has you beat whatever you raise to, but when he has one of those hands that you beat that has to call (lower sets, 2 pair) you make more money by raising more.
The only other factor is how often he calls medium-ish raises with 1 pair or otherwise mediocre hands. OP said he was a bad player and I've seen plenty of bad players call a river raise here with QJ,etc. If he's that bad, and he's not so passive that he'd never raise the river with one of those hands, I like making it 350 or so.
If QJ-AQ are not in his range or he won't call a river 3bet with them, push for value over lower sets.

Slap My Jack · #10 10-16-2006, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You need to bet this flop. You've built up FE with your flop raise and this is about the best flop you could hope for when you miss.

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Nah, no way. Bet sometimes, check a lot. Flush draw out there and we're first to act. We basically have a check/fold on the turn if called.

Turn you can bet.

I think dbitel had it right:
[ QUOTE ]
I check this flop a decent % of the time.

I probably fire on the turn almost always though.

On the river, I think you need to raise more. I might even consider pushing, depending on if you think he can fold 22/44/55 or not

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I think push is probably best.