Is God "just"?

[slik]

Okay. So let me get this straight. I am a terrible person, the worst person in the history of existence. I commit every possible sin in my whatever many years of life. Is it "just" to punish me for all of eternity for a finite amount of sins? So clearly something is incomplete with the existing scriptures of monotheistic texts -- either god is not "just" or the scriptures are blasphemy... which drives me towards mysticism. It is the only way that god can both exist, and be "just"; or so I think.

[She]

Would you consider it just if he had offered you complete pardon for all your sins and you rejected it?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay. So let me get this straight. I am a terrible person, the worst person in the history of existence. I commit every possible sin in my whatever many years of life. Is it "just" to punish me for all of eternity for a finite amount of sins? So clearly something is incomplete with the existing scriptures of monotheistic texts -- either god is not "just" or the scriptures are blasphemy... which drives me towards mysticism. It is the only way that god can both exist, and be "just"; or so I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
just: acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good

God, by definition is good. In other words, the defintion of good is derived from God. Therefore, God is just.

Furthermore, understand that one of God's laws (as unchanging as any physical law in this world) is that rebellion from God (sin) must be paid by the sacrifice of life. That can either be your life; spiritual death being eternal separation from the source of life - God. Or you can accept the sacrifice that God has already provided - the death and resurrection of Jesus.

[madnak]

This is one of the most inherently obvious things about Christianity, and one of the things that Christians most stubbornly refuse to approach rationally. Typically the point is reached where your argument doesn't apply because either "our mortal reasoning doesn't apply to God," or because "God is just by definition, there's no point arguing about it."

I think a similar argument is the one that goes like this:

1.God is omnibenevolent, he always chooses the most benevolent course of action.
2.God is completely just, he always chooses the most just course of action.
3.When the most benevolent action is unjust, God chooses the just action over and above the benevolent action.
4. From 3, God doesn't always choose the most benevolent course of action.

5. From 1 and 4 - Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!

The only valid responses here are that either the fact God is omnibenevolent doesn't mean he's always benevolent, or that when God makes people suffer (even for eternity), that's the most benevolent course.

But the a definition of omnibenevolent that doesn't mean "always benevolent" is disingenuous at best, and the fact that God is omnipotent contradicts the second objection. As God is omnipotent, he has to power to end all suffering. But God allows (and actually creates) suffering. Therefore, God must value something above suffering. Therefore, God is not omnibenevolent.

Omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and hell cannot coexist with the same God. It's basically logical fact, assuming any definition of "omnipotent" and "omnibenevolent" that isn't contingent.

The only Christian I know who has dealt with this problem is bunny. He gets two outs: First, he doesn't believe God is really omnipotent, just all-powerful within certain bounds. Second, he doesn't believe in a literal hell. Of all the Christians I've spoken with, he's the only one who takes the religion seriously (as opposed to the so-called "liberal Christians" who treat Christianity as a philosophy rather than as a religion) who can be consistent on this topic.

So. The true position of Christians isn't that God is omnibenevolent - in fact, he can be extremely cruel when "justice" warrants it. God is omnix3 - omnipotent, omnibenevolent, and "omnijust." The reason they play at the omnibenevolent part is because the more honest approach taken in previous centuries doesn't work with our more peaceful mentality. But at heart the religion is based on this "justice."

And watch the responses to your post. The Christian idea of justice isn't our idea of justice. It's not, "an eye for an eye." And it's clearly not that God is somehow forced to let people suffer in hell - God is omnipotent, he can make anyone happy, even someone removed from him. The cost of God to make everyone happy in the afterlife is the same as the cost of God to make some people miserable in the afterlife. And if "separation from God" is torture, it's only torture because God made it that way. God could easily (effortlessly, in fact) make it so that separation from God is blissful. But he chooses to let those separate from him suffer. The whole reinterpretation business is a red herring.

Thus, the "justice" God represents is consistent with infinite punishment for finite crimes. And also with the declaration "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God." And with all the destruction and fiery vengeance outlined through the Bible. It's a kind of justice that we are meant to fear - as the Bible itself makes plain as day.

Thus, God is, far from being an omnibenevolent ruler, a ruler who is "just" but only in a savage and cruel way beyond human understanding. Given all this, exactly what about God could an objective observer call "good" according to conventional standards?

[txag007]

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1.God is omnibenevolent, he always chooses the most benevolent course of action.


[/ QUOTE ]
Benevolent by God's standard. By defining God as good, our determination of what is good, what is bad, and what is wrong and right come directly from God.

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2.God is completely just, he always chooses the most just course of action.

[/ QUOTE ]
"just" being derived from the above definition of "good".

[ QUOTE ]
3.When the most benevolent action is unjust...

[/ QUOTE ]
benevolent: marked by or disposed to doing good

just: acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[kurto]

Txag- your post only works if you're such an unquestioning holy roller that you believe goodness is only defined by God.

I suspect this question is going out to people who didn't throw logic out the window and operate on blind faith.

[revots33]

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just: acting or being in conformity with what is morally upright or good

[/ QUOTE ]

Case 1: A serial killer genuinely accepts god as his savior and sincerely asks god for forgiveness, just as the electric chair is switched on. He spends eternity in heaven.

Case 2: A person who is born into a Muslim family in a Muslim country, spends his life helping the poor and sick. Eventually he dies when he jumps on a terrorist grenade, saving a room full of schoolchildren. He spends eternity in hell because he happened to be born into the "wrong" religion.

Case 3: A child in a 3rd world country, who never even heard of the Christian god, dies of thirst because god, in his infinite justice, decides not to send rain. This child ends up.... where?

[txag007]

[ QUOTE ]
Case 2: A person who is born into a Muslim family in a Muslim country, spends his life helping the poor and sick. Eventually he dies when he jumps on a terrorist grenade, saving a room full of schoolchildren. He spends eternity in hell because he happened to be born into the "wrong" religion.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are born into a family. You are born with a certain race. You are not born into a religion. Question: what happens to a muslim if he leaves islam?

[ QUOTE ]
Case 3: A child in a 3rd world country, who never even heard of the Christian god, dies of thirst because god, in his infinite justice, decides not to send rain. This child ends up.... where?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know, but you can help him: www.wateraid.org

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
You are born into a family. You are born with a certain race. You are not born into a religion. Question: what happens to a muslim if he leaves islam?


[/ QUOTE ]

You're playing semantics. If you are born in a country inhabited by Muslims... your family is Muslim and you are indoctrinated into the Muslim faith from the day you're born... surprise, you become a Muslim.

I hate when you don't even try to be rational and answer the question.

So your answer is... that Muslim burns for eternity because he was born in a bad country? That is a sign of God's love and justice?

[revots33]

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Question: what happens to a muslim if he leaves islam?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on which god is the "real" one.