U Make The Decision - Showdown With Lot’s of Yelling & Screaming

[Rick Nebiolo]

In this post I’m going to remove most of the “soundtrack” and “extra features/details” and try to explain the facts simply. In the sub-post posted immediately below I’ll add these fun details back. Later I’ll provide my own comments and try to explain how small differences in the facts would or should change the decision.

Imagine a big three-way pot in a Los Angeles cardroom $5 BB NL game. After the turn betting a player no longer in the hand (Seat 4) is already saying he wants to see all hands after the showdown.

After the river betting Seat 6 is all-in for a large main pot, Seat 9 is all-in for the large main and the small side pot, and Seat 1 covers both players. Seat 4 repeats his request to see all hands.

The board is something like 7s-5c-8s-Th-Td. The dealer asks Seat 9 and Seat 1 to turn over their hands for the side pot. Seat 1 immediately turns over 6s-5s. The dealer correctly announces “a pair of fives and tens” for Seat 1’s hand. Seat 9 bullet mucks and takes no further roll in the proceedings. The dealer pushes the small side pot to Seat 1 and asks Seat 6 to show his hand for the main pot. Seat 6 looks at the board, looks at his hand, looks at Seat 1’s hand and finally throws his hand toward the muck face down. Before Seat 6’s hand touches the muck, Seat 4 repeats his request to see the hand. The dealer turns over Seat 6’s hand without tapping the muck to “officially” turn it into a dead hand. Seat 6’s hand turns out to be Js-Jc (the best two pair).

Now we have lots of pointing, yelling and screaming and the floor is eventually called to the table. Who gets the pot and why?

[Rick Nebiolo]

This is essentially the same post as my OP but with the “soundtrack” and “extra features/details” added, just like a DVD movie. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Once again, imagine a big three-way pot in a Los Angeles cardroom $5 BB NL game. After the turn betting a player no longer in the hand (Seat 4) is already saying he wants to see all hands after the showdown.

After the river betting Seat 6 is all-in for a large main pot, Seat 9 is all-in for the large main and the small side pot, and Seat 1 covers both players. Seat 4 repeats his request to see all hands.

The board is something like 7s-5c-8s-Th-Td. The dealer asks Seat 9 and Seat 1 to turn over their hands for the side pot. Seat 1 immediately turns over 6s-5s. The dealer correctly announces “a pair of fives and tens” for Seat 1’s hand. Seat 9 bullet mucks and takes no further roll in the proceedings. The dealer pushes the small side pot to Seat 1 and asks Seat 6 to show his hand for the main pot. Seat 6 looks at the board, looks at his hand, looks at Seat 1’s hand and finally throws his hand toward the muck face down. Before Seat 6’s hand touches the muck, Seat 4 repeats his request to see the hand. The dealer turns over Seat 6’s hand without tapping the muck to “officially” turn it into a dead hand. Seat 6’s hand turns out to be Js-Jc (the best two pair).

Seat 3 starts screaming that Seat 6 has the best hand and should get the pot and tries to describe how this was identical to a situation he saw a few days ago. Seat 1 now states, “But he mucked his hand, it’s my pot”. The dealer looks somewhat intimidated by the screaming from Seat 3 and appears to be starting to push the pot to Seat 6. I’m watching all this in Seat 2 and tell the dealer “This isn’t your decision, please protect the pot and cards and call the floor.” So she calls the floor.

When the floor arrives he gets a somewhat garbled and quickly convoluted explanation regarding what happened from the dealer and perhaps Seat 3, sees that a pair of jacks and tens beats a pair of fives and tens, and tells the dealer to push the pot to Seat 6. Seat 1 is obviously upset.

Now I speak up. “Mr. Floorman, you need to slow down here and carefully get all the facts before even starting to make your decision.”

So we go over the facts as stated in the OP. The floor rethinks his decision, tells Seat 6 that he mucked his hand, and tells the dealer to push the pot to Seat 1. Seat 3 is now going even more ballistic. Seat 6 was rather reserved during all this but finally says to the floor that “At the other club I would get the pot and you are obviously favoring a regular.” Seat 1 responds “I’m not a regular and don’t even know Mr. Floor”.

The Floorman appears to be reconsidering the decision once more. The pot still hasn’t been pushed. I suggest that the Floorman call the Shift Manager in for this one. This sounds OK to the now flustered Floorman and the Shift Manager is called over the radio.

You are the Shift Manager and finally make it to the table. While Seat 3 continues to scream you gather in the facts (with my help of course) and make the decision. What is your decision and why?

[LasVegasMichael]

56 gets the pot. Same thing happened at Ballys a few weeks ago, and I was at the table. Some douche asked to see the mucked hand, and it turned out that it would have been a winner. However, since it was mucked facedown by the playey, it was a dead hand. Floor ruled as such, and should rule the same way here.

[RR]

The JJ is dead by rule. If the dealer turns up your hand after someone (who doesn't appear to have the best hand) uses IWTSTH your hand is dead.

[cpk]

It is clear that Seat 6 relinquished interest in the pot. Award it all to Seat 1. Seems like KITNs go to a lot of people, though.

[GTL]

My answer is going to be based on the "spirit" of the rules and what I consider to be the best ruling for the game. I can't base it on any official rules because I'm not sure what they are in this situation.

Seat 6 never tabled his hand so I dont believe that the cards speak rule should be in effect here. I dont think it matters that the dealer never "officially" mucked the hand. The player tossed his cards at the muck. This is a fold. Seat one has tabled a hand for the main pot. Seat 6 folded. I think this should end all argument right here. Seat 6 cannot take his hand back. The pot should be awarded to seat 1.

[AngusThermopyle]

Throw Seat 3 under a semi.
Give the pot to Seat 1.
Explain the rules to Seat 6 and suggest that he table his hand next time if he is in doubt.

[jar]

From reading the first post only, seat 6's hand is dead. The dealer touching the cards to the muck is only to make the application of the rule visually apparent to the players. The muck has no special magical powers. Seat one gets the monies.

Edit to add: I accidentally mucked the best hand at Foxwoods on Saturday. I got a free play in the BB with 73o, flopped a pair of 7s, and the hand checked down. A player showed a 9 (matching one on the board), so I mucked. I realized too late that the river was a 3. I grabbed my cards and flipped them without thinking. The player with the 9 complained (correctly) that my hand was dead. I agreed, flipped it back over, and tossed it in the muck. I could've played ruling roulette and possibly gotten the pot, but I was clearly in the wrong, and my spirit of fair play costs more than 3 SB.

[cpk]

[ QUOTE ]
You are the Shift Manager and finally make it to the table. While Seat 3 continues to scream you gather in the facts (with my help of course) and make the decision. What is your decision and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Same decision, and I tell Seat 3 to STFU or get lost. In a professional way, of course.

Seat 6 clearly intended to relinquish interest in the pot. This would be a lot different if cards had fallen out of his hands, or he tabled them and they flipped face down, or something like that. Throwing one's cards face down towards the muck unequivocably means "I forfeit the pot."

[Jon1000]

I agree that in the pot should be awarded to 5s6s. However, at the casino i regularly play at, a hand is not ruled dead until it physically touches the muck pile. So, the floor might very well rule in favor of JJ.