Plato and Feminism

[sigurrostyp]

I just finished reading the Republic and I am wondering what the forums views of whether Plato is a Feminist or not?

[guesswest]

Is this a joke?

[madnak]

If you define feminism based on equality, sure. At least in theory (not so much in practice).

If you define feminism based on the "hegemonic social structures" or the "primal matriarchy" or something, then nah. I doubt it.

[sigurrostyp]

No, it isn't a joke. In The Republic he challenges a women's ability to successfully raise a citizen of the state, and therefore all rearing of children should be institutionalised. I just feel that it is a worthwhile topic to discuss.

[guesswest]

I just googled this and see that it's a question that people have raised before - it never would have occured to me based on my reading of Plato, especially the Republic.

Plato was certainly not an egalitarian, he argues for a tripartite division of society in the Republic, which is about as inegalitarian as you can get. It's true that this division was not to take place along gender lines, but you could argue that he was anything but a feminist based on that alone, ie by saying that generalized egalitarianism is necessary for feminism.

But even setting that aside, he continually makes disparaging remarks towards women in his texts. I'm just not sure where this comes from - if he's a feminist it's only in the sense that he didn't care enough about the role of women to pro-actively denegrate them.

And with regards to his view that children should be raised by the state - I think that's just an extension of his view that his philosopher kings are the best people to decide everything. I think he'd have made the same argument if working class males were raising children.

[AthenianStranger]

[ QUOTE ]
I just finished reading the Republic and I am wondering what the forums views of whether Plato is a Feminist or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plato wouldn't know what the hell you're talking about. "Feminism" is a political stance founded on Marxist deconstructionism and is totally alien to Plato's purpose. It places the absolute on something nebulous and vaguely defined-- the rights of woman-- and recasts everything in light of this object. Plato's Republic places the absolute on The Good, and what mankind is. Furthermore, Plato is not working as a revolutionary, recasting society according to some ideal (at least not then). The point of the The Republic is to ask, 'What is justice?' and transform the politcally minded young men into more philosophically minded seekers after virtue.

[aeest400]

I didn't realize John Stuart Mill was a marxist.


John Stuart Mill
The Subjection of Women (1869)
CHAPTER I

The object of this Essay is to explain as clearly as I am able grounds of an opinion which I have held from the very earliest period when I had formed any opinions at all on social political matters, and which, instead of being weakened or modified, has been constantly growing stronger by the progress of reflection and the experience of life. That the principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes — the legal subordination of one sex to the other — is wrong itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; and that it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other.

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au..._stuart/m645s/

This looks pretty "feminist" to me. That said, whatever feminism is, Plato wasn't one.

[aeest400]

[ QUOTE ]
I just finished reading the Republic and I am wondering what the forums views of whether Plato is a Feminist or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, is this sentence true? Did you really read the Republic and come away wondering if Plato is a feminist? That doesn't seem like one of the top 100 issues the text introduces. Rather, the question seems like a midterm exam, but it's too "old school" for a feminism class and too "new school" for an ancient philosophy class?

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't realize John Stuwart Mill was a marxist.


John Stuart Mill
The Subjection of Women (1869)
CHAPTER I

The object of this Essay is to explain as clearly as I am able grounds of an opinion which I have held from the very earliest period when I had formed any opinions at all on social political matters, and which, instead of being weakened or modified, has been constantly growing stronger by the progress of reflection and the experience of life. That the principle which regulates the existing social relations between the two sexes — the legal subordination of one sex to the other — is wrong itself, and now one of the chief hindrances to human improvement; and that it ought to be replaced by a principle of perfect equality, admitting no power or privilege on the one side, nor disability on the other.

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au..._stuart/m645s/

This looks pretty "feminist" to me. That said, whatever feminism is, Plato wasn't one.

[/ QUOTE ]
Aristophanes' Lysistrata was a bit before marx as well. I'm not expert enough in feministic theory to know if it counts.

chez

[sigurrostyp]

I am in an Ancient Philosophy class and am a philosophy minor. One of the potential topics we could write about is Plato's views on feminism, and it is the one I picked to write about. The reason I picked this topic is because it seemed obvious to me that I would say that Plato was definitely not a feminist and could construct a very good argument, but when we talked about it in class, and when I read some information online there were some people claiming that he was a feminist. An example of such an argument would be of this nature, " Plato wanted to create a more equitable society, and although you may argue that the rights he was allowing them were hollow as they fundamentally had no freedoms, he was still advocating greater equality for women which makes him a feminist."
I was and am curious to see what some people who are much more knowledgeable on philosophy than myself had to say about the topic.