Do people overdo attacking the bringin in razz?

[betgo]

It should have been obvious to villain that I was probably way ahead and wasn't folding.

Razz ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (converter)

Seat 1: $259.50
Seat 2: $271
Seat 4: $99.50
Seat 5: $274
Seat 6: $173.50
Seat 7: $425.50
Hero: $219.50

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Vil 6: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls

4th Street - (2.70 SB)

Vil 6: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.35 BB)

Vil 6: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (4.35 BB)

Vil 6: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (6.35 BB)

Vil 6: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (8.35 BB)

Results (in white):<font color="white">

Total pot $83.50 | Rake $3

Vil 6: [Td Ks 8h 4d 2d 5d Qs] (Lo: T,8,5,4,2)

Hero: [3d 2h Jc 7h 6s 8d Th] (Lo: 8,7,6,3,2)

</font>

[Spladle]

You have a jack in your door. It is impossible for you to be "way ahead" at any point in the hand. You're not even a 3-1 favorite against villain's actual hand (which is about as bad as hands get in this game) on fifth and might be drawing dead by sixth. You're actually a 58-42 dog to two random cards in the hole on fifth and sixth. Villain has automatic bets on every street because you'll fold if you've paired at any point, and the pot is big enough by the river to risk one bet to win it.

It is almost impossible to "overdo attacking the bringin in razz" but it is very easy to over-defend it.

[Beavis68]

people over do defending the bring-in in razz

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
You have a jack in your door. It is impossible for you to be "way ahead" at any point in the hand. You're not even a 3-1 favorite against villain's actual hand (which is about as bad as hands get in this game) on fifth and might be drawing dead by sixth. You're actually a 58-42 dog to two random cards in the hole on fifth and sixth. Villain has automatic bets on every street because you'll fold if you've paired at any point, and the pot is big enough by the river to risk one bet to win it.

It is almost impossible to "overdo attacking the bringin in razz" but it is very easy to over-defend it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know I was way ahead, but villain should have known I was way ahead. My up cards are J768, so it is practically impossible I have paired.

One of the big drawbacks of defending the bringin with a face card showing is that it is obvious you have two wheel cards. However, opponents often doing use that information well.

I also think this was a pretty easy defense with a a jack and 2 wheel cards versus an apparent steal by an 8.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
people over do defending the bring-in in razz

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed but in this situation, with an 8 raising at a T and J, and with two wheel cards, I think this is a correct defense.

[Scary_Tiger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
people over do defending the bring-in in razz

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed but in this situation, with an 8 raising at a T and J, and with two wheel cards, I think this is a correct defense.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is and you played this hand well.

Your opponent is a donkey. It happens.

[Beavis68]

because the pot is small, and you cant read him, I disagree, just fold it an move on.

[Spladle]

[ QUOTE ]
I also think this was a pretty easy defense with a a jack and 2 wheel cards versus an apparent steal by an 8.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, I agree with this. But you seem to think that the stealer badly misplayed his hand. He didn't.

[Spladle]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know I was way ahead, but villain should have known I was way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to reiterate that you are only about a 3-2 favorite on 3rd and 4th and about 3-1 on fifth and sixth. That's hardly what I'd call way ahead. The only person who could be way ahead in this hand is the villain. You could be drawing dead on sixth and, as I've stated, are a 58-42 dog against two random cards in the hole on both fifth and sixth.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know I was way ahead, but villain should have known I was way ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would like to reiterate that you are only about a 3-2 favorite on 3rd and 4th and about 3-1 on fifth and sixth. That's hardly what I'd call way ahead. The only person who could be way ahead in this hand is the villain. You could be drawing dead on sixth and, as I've stated, are a 58-42 dog against two random cards in the hole on both fifth and sixth.

[/ QUOTE ]
But he knows he is almost certainly a 3-1 dog on 5th and 6th. It is almost impossible for me to be paired, since I called on 3rd and called all the way along. The bringin hand is often stronger than it appears.

I could be way behind from my point of view, but not from his point of view.