$50NL- Too Fancy with AQ here?

Count Stackula · #1 09-20-2006, 10:11 AM

The villan had stats something like 20/10 (aprox.)
Is it silly to re-raise here with AQ, in the hope of taking it down before the flop, or against a TAG such as this should i be
just calling or folding...

The way i saw this hand in my head was that he might just be making a raise hoping for position so i thought that either i may be ahead of his range here, or i may just take it down before the flop...Silly thinking?

And then the real problems came on the flop...when i led into him i was saying to my self "he is gonna push" at the moment he pushed should i be insta folding this...or should i be calling...the way i saw it was there is no way someone with KK or AK would be doing this into the preflop re-raiser, and flop bettor...would most people with a flopped f/house here be just calling (maybe?)....either way i talked myself into calling...bad call or a good call.

comments on all streets of this hand appreciated...

Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
6 players

Stack sizes:
UTG: $130.45
UTG+1: $51.05
CO: $68.95
Button: $38
SB: $40.10
Hero: $114.40

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with qh ah
2 folds, CO raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero raises to $7, CO calls.

Flop: kd ac ad ($14.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $10, CO raises all-in $61.95, Hero calls.

Turn: 6h ($138.15, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $138.15)

River: 5c ($138.15, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $138.15)

Results:
Final pot: $138.15

bottomset · #2 09-20-2006, 10:14 AM

I think it looks fine

Kristijan · #3 09-20-2006, 11:13 AM

Preflop: How large of a sample do you have on the villain? Did you have his ATSB numbers? If he is 20/10 over a large sample with a low ATSB I would consider just calling preflop. But if it is a small sample, and/or you have seen him making loose raises in position against bad players, or squeezing, or any other trademarks of a smart TAG then you should mix it up here between calling and 3-betting.

What can you tell us about his preflop opens? Are they always pot size raises? Does he raise different amounts in position? Do you have any history?

Flop: Here it really helps to have more than a stats based read on him. If you consider him a smart player and a decent TAG, what hands do you think he might open with in the CO and then call a reraise from the BB? If he was opening loosely, do you think he'd make a loose call in position against a reraise from the BB? Which of these hands are you going to get any value out of? Is leading the best way to get value out of all them? What did your flop bet say to villain?

Let's suppose that villain had a monster like AK/KK. There are essentially two possibilites for your flop bet. It is a "fold now you bitch" bet or it is "I want to play a big pot" bet. If villain recognizes this then moving in is his best play by far. If he calls the flop and you were just "fold now you bitch" betting then you should give up on the turn and he gets no more money out of you. If your bet is a "I have a big hand" then a quick combo count (if he has KK then you have AK 2 ways, AA 1 way and AQ 8 ways and possibly we can add a couple of combos of AJ; if he has AK the combos are irrelevant) shows that he maximize his value by just moving in on you because you'll have a near impossible time getting away from it since no one expects villain to push a monster so quickly. If he were to just call the flop and pop later you'd have a much easier time finding a fold with your hand.

If villain did call loosely preflop (or has a hand like JJ) he's probably just going to fold on the flop instead of making a move with such deep stacks. With your preflop action and flop bet you are saying you have a big hand. Sometimes you don't but most of the time you should and pushing to rebluff you wouldn't be smart poker.

If he has a hand like AJ pushing the flop would be a mistake. What worse hands in your range will call?

So I think villain has AK/KK and found the best way to get his stack in.

A43Braun · #4 09-20-2006, 11:20 AM

I can't find a fold here. AK is certainly a possibility, but so is AJ, AT, or even Axs. The diamond draw on the flop is also a possibility, although raising all-in with it on the flop would certainly be an aggressive play.

Kristijan · #5 09-20-2006, 11:23 AM

If villain pushes with AJ/AT/Axs, what worse hands is he expecting to call?

True · #6 09-20-2006, 11:23 AM

call and get the chips in before he does.

The re-raise is pretty risky, do it sometimes, dont do it sometimes, very game-dynamic dependant. Flop is standardo.

The reason I would be reluctant to do this with AQ is that on a flop like AJ3 or A75 you dont really know where you are at.

True

prayformojo · #7 09-20-2006, 11:24 AM

Your title is misleading: I don't see anything fancy about this hand at all. You were ahead of villain's range, flopped a fantastic hand that was still ahead of villain's range, and got all the money in by betting out in a straightforward manner. Even at 10% PFR, any TAG has a pretty wide CO opening range, including aces down to A8 or as low as A2s. I would be begging for him to push the flop.

Nice hand.

prayformojo · #8 09-20-2006, 11:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason I would be reluctant to do this with AQ is that on a flop like AJ3 or A75 you dont really know where you are at.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same is true of AK and KK-88, all of which I would re-raise against this player when he opens in CO as a matter of rule. One of the reasons for the pre-flop raise, if it's called, is to narrow my opponent's potential holding and take control of the post-flop action.

True · #9 09-20-2006, 11:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason I would be reluctant to do this with AQ is that on a flop like AJ3 or A75 you dont really know where you are at.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same is true of AK and KK-88, all of which I would re-raise against this player when he opens in CO as a matter of rule. One of the reasons for the pre-flop raise, if it's called, is to narrow my opponent's potential holding and take control of the post-flop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

the same is not really true of AK.... and also not really true of 88-KK....

AQ is just on the margin where it definitely could be the best hand. IF you get raised with KK on Axx board you are likely smoked.

True

prayformojo · #10 09-20-2006, 11:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason I would be reluctant to do this with AQ is that on a flop like AJ3 or A75 you dont really know where you are at.

[/ QUOTE ]

The same is true of AK and KK-88, all of which I would re-raise against this player when he opens in CO as a matter of rule. One of the reasons for the pre-flop raise, if it's called, is to narrow my opponent's potential holding and take control of the post-flop action.

[/ QUOTE ]

the same is not really true of AK.... and also not really true of 88-KK....

AQ is just on the margin where it definitely could be the best hand. IF you get raised with KK on Axx board you are likely smoked.

True

[/ QUOTE ]

On an A75 or AJ3 board, what is it about AK that lets hero know where he is at (more so than AQ)? Is it simply that with AK we know we're not behind AK? That's a quantitative difference, that there are X more hands in Villain's range that beat us. If there's a qualitative difference I'm not getting I'd like to hear it.