3 10/20 hands

punter11235 · #1 08-23-2006, 08:38 AM

Hello all,
Iam somewhat new to shorthanded limit so bare with me.
If my questions are too basic or 10/20 doesnt qualify for midstakes please tell me so I will post in small stakes forum in the future.
For some time I wont have stats on Villains as I am just starting in the games.
Ok to the hansd :

1)
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Should I bluff that river ? My thinking was that I shouldnt because he would probably muck A high on the turn and people dont fold pairs from what Ive seen. Is this correct ?

2)

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB folds, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Is this line 100% standard ? I think yes but I would like to make sure.

3)Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises
Final Pot: 13.25 BB

During the hand the line seemed obvious to me but after some thinking I am not sure if I have value raise on the river. I will lose 2 bets to 22 hands : 44/66/KQ so I need 44hands which call one bet (is this thinking correct ?) There is J10/A10 maybe some very bizzare 2pair too and not much more so I just call that river , right ?
One more thing I thought about is to raise and fold to 3bet but I am not comfortable doing that, does the idea make sense ?

Any comments about other streets are welcome too of course [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

SparkyDog · #2 08-23-2006, 08:51 AM

Hand 1 I think you have a profitable river bluff. Personally, I don't care for giving up on these type of bluffs HU unless it is just plain as day that Villain is calling down w/ a better hand. I don't think that's obvious here.

Hand 2 is alright, but I prefer to raise flop, bet turn and check behind river. He won't bluff a busted straight draw as often as he'll call the turn and miss on the river, IMO.

Hand 3 is most read dependent, to determine the best play we really need a read. That being said, I think you should raise. He'll have you beat almost always if he 3bets, but you should proabably call if he's unknown on the chance that he happens to be an idiot. As far as how often you need to be ahead, that depends on what he'll call two bets with and what he'll 3bet with.

StupidAcesSigh · #3 08-23-2006, 10:35 AM

Hand #1 is good but vary you play and just call down (folding river u/i) sometimes. Alot of people don't fold heads up so don't waste bets. They will often give you a free card when they have a bad pair. Don't bluff the river, he is calling almost all the time.

#2 - I don't generally raise the flop, but if I had I would bet the turn. Def. call the river.

#3 - Played perfectly. It is a MUST raise; your opponents will be value betting slim so you must counter by raising strong hands. You have a rock crusher; but just call if he three bets.

Keepitsimple · #4 08-23-2006, 10:45 AM

1# I think a bet will show profit here vs an unknown.
2# I would bet/fold turn and check behind river.
3# I think an unknown will pay off with Jx so you have a raise.

sweetjazz · #5 08-23-2006, 11:03 AM

Hands #1 and #2 are okay some of the time, but don't always take these lines. In fact, hand #1 is a time where I would be inclined to play my draw slowly. The reason being that any time the villain has a Q, a J or often just a A (as well as a PP) I expect to be called down. That's most of his range. I would tend to check/call the flop, check/call the turn and check/fold the river, on this particular board. Your line is fine in general, but I think a Q63 flop is a lot better to go after than a QJ6 flop. In both cases villain must fear you have a real hand, but in the case of Q63 he will often have very little.

Similarly with hand #2, you have to get a feel for what players are donking with. Often it is a small pair, though sometimes it is a draw or air. Given the relative strength of your hand here, I think trying to get to a showdown is a good idea. Your line is nice in that you only have to invest 2 BB. The alternate of betting the turn and checking behind the river is generally a little better. Also don't get stubborn on these hands. If the turn were a 7, then I would be inclined to check behind the turn and fold unless I paired on the river (in which case I would just call).

Hand 3 definitely raise for value and make a crying call if 3bet. You will get called by so many worse hands because the pot is offering such a nice price, they have been taught not to fold on the end, they will rationalize the A as a perfect bluff card for you, etc. etc.

danzasmack · #6 08-23-2006, 12:16 PM

Hand #1 - not much you can do there. There are a lot of hands he is showing down there if you bet. Any reads at all would help but against unknown I am checking here more often than not. Sometimes I take weird lines there, line c/c flop, donk turn; donk flop. But the way you played it is fine.

Hand #2) As mentioned betting the turn is what i lean towards, then check behind river. But not on this board. That was a bad turn card and I want to take this hand to showdown. I play it the same (with no reads).

Hand #3) Must raise. The concept of "raising but I can't fold to a 3bet" makes sense but you get called by a lot of hands on that river. A lot.

siegfriedandroy · #7 08-23-2006, 01:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #1 is good but vary you play and just call down (folding river u/i) sometimes. Alot of people don't fold heads up so don't waste bets. They will often give you a free card when they have a bad pair. Don't bluff the river, he is calling almost all the time.

#2 - I don't generally raise the flop, but if I had I would bet the turn. Def. call the river.

#3 - Played perfectly. It is a MUST raise; your opponents will be value betting slim so you must counter by raising strong hands. You have a rock crusher; but just call if he three bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1 is okay, but i fold preflop. according to stoxtrader, it's best to fold k2 type hands against a steal, but call w/ q6ish types. he might have just been talking about heads up play, though. anyway, k3o is an easy fold against a cutoff raise.

hand 2 i think bet turn, check river is more consistent, since when you raise flop you are putting him on a draw and charging him. so why give him a free turn card?

hand 3 depends on villain. you could 3bet turn if he will raise light enough. i think the river is a definite raise/crying call.

stoxtrader · #8 08-23-2006, 05:41 PM

I think folding hand 1 pre-flop is a mistake. K3o vs a CO opener is much closer.

Victor · #9 08-23-2006, 05:59 PM

hand 1. a lot of bad players are calling the turn with ace high bc they have a gutter. i think its worth a bet.

hand 2. when someone bets into the pot on the flop 3way its generally a real hand like a pair or better. best case is its a draw. i think you can get in lots of trouble raising these kinds of flops against the wrong type of player.

hand 3. raise is good if you can fold to the 4bet.

Nate tha\\\' Great · #10 08-23-2006, 06:14 PM

Why the hell are people talking about making a "crying call" if 3-bet in hand 3? It's almost a cap.