Bet/fold line of play

[alul]

I noticed that many posters here advocate bet/folding on the river even when heads up. I can agree with this line when you have more than one opponent, you don't have much of a hand and you have been raised and somebody else calls the raise. But when you bet/fold to a raise headsup it's really noticeable. If I see a player doing it couple of times I start raising the river really often. To me if you don't want to call the raise HU, don't bet. I'm not talking of bluff bets of course, this is a separate topic. But I may be wrong since I'm not a guru at poker. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Any thoughts, examples?

[Bill King]

i think bet/folding the river is a bigger mistake than doing it on the flop. most of the time the pot will be too big on the river to fold. if you find yourself in a pattern of firing a bet out and then folding, you're probably playing bad and this is a horrible move unless you're sure the opponent will fold. and that is basically saying your hand is no good at showdown and you made a bad read.

folding the river for one bet is a HUGE mistake in limit holdem unless you're 100% sure you're beat.

[Mr_Donktastic]

I'm not a "guru at poker" either but I've said before that there just seems to be something inherently wrong with betting the river with the intention of folding if raised.

And I have also noticed that the b/f at the river line is given quite a bit in this forum...it makes me cringe every time.

[Bill King]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a "guru at poker" either but I've said before that there just seems to be something inherently wrong with betting the river with the intention of folding if raised.

And I have also noticed that the b/f at the river line is given quite a bit in this forum...it makes me cringe every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

its differnt when you play higher stakes, but at smaller games bet/folding the river is a huge mistake and hole in your game.

[alimoe]

Bill, don't you advocate the bet/fold in this post that I just read?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post6943504

[Bill King]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill, don't you advocate the bet/fold in this post that I just read?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post6943504

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an entirely situational hand, and can be played several ways. not all hands have a strict set of guidelines.

[alimoe]

Absolutely, I agree. That's why I was surprised that you advocated it in the other post. Here you say you must be close to 100% positive to make bet/fold correct. In that post, you seem close to 100% positive that it's the right move. But, I guess this discussion is best held for that post.

[ProfessorBen]

[ QUOTE ]
I noticed that many posters here advocate bet/folding on the river even when heads up. I can agree with this line when you have more than one opponent, you don't have much of a hand and you have been raised and somebody else calls the raise. But when you bet/fold to a raise headsup it's really noticeable. If I see a player doing it couple of times I start raising the river really often. To me if you don't want to call the raise HU, don't bet. I'm not talking of bluff bets of course, this is a separate topic. But I may be wrong since I'm not a guru at poker. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] Any thoughts, examples?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the reason that B/F has so few correct uses is that, like slowplaying, it requires many coniditions to be met and yet there are still often alternatives to it(aka. C/C).

Some of these are:
1. Small pot: The bet/fold is indifferent to pot size in itself(1 Big bet earned through a value bet is always 1 big bet), but with smaller pots it is less reason for your opponent to bluff raise.

2. Villian will call a bet, but check behind with a weaker hand: This assumes another condition, that you have the villian or her/his hand read to a degree. Given the situation(the opponent, all play prior to the river, etc.)

3. Opponent's hand read: One of the reasons that this is so important is that, as there is greater uncertainity about your opponent's hand, it is more correct to make the alternative play(C/C). To draw an analogy to slowplaying, the more sure you are that Villian will not call your flop bet, the more correct it is. The more uncertain you are (board that connects with more hands, calling station) the more correct it is just go out and bet. You have to be pretty damn sure that he's not calling for slowplaying to be the correct play.
Likewise, the more sure that he will simply call the river donk or river bet on a checked turn /w a marginal hand earning you a bet and raising with only a hand that beats yours, the more correct you are to B/F. If you are less sure, you are better of using the alternative (B/F and C/C)

Firstly, the less sure you are, the more that information is worth to you in the long-run. In which case, you want to see showdown.(C/C)
Secondly, and more obviously, the less sure you are, the more likely you see yourself getting bluff raised or raised with a worse hand. (lol raise/fold)

4. Nontricky/aggressive Villian: As you mentioned, seeing someone do this once will prompt thinking, tricky, aggressive players to make plays at you. This line is better reserved for passive calling stations.

5. Frequency: For the above reason, one should seldom use this play, much like how seldomly one should coldcall. However, use this to your advantage as well. The one time that I do bet/fold, I advertise it like crazy(B&M). The next time a similar hand plays, and I have the nuts, I'm bet/3betting the hand!

I'm sure I left out some others and melded a couple together, but the point stands is that espically at small stakes, it will not be used often.

In Summary,
If you completely go the rest of your Limit life w/o B/F but play a solid game, you'll probably be fine due to the frequency in which a B/F is actually viable. However, it can often help earn a bet in marginal situations, coupled with the bets saved, and prompting people to bluff at you can enhance your profits. Learn to use it, but learn to use it correctly.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not a "guru at poker" either but I've said before that there just seems to be something inherently wrong with betting the river with the intention of folding if raised.

And I have also noticed that the b/f at the river line is given quite a bit in this forum...it makes me cringe every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

its differnt when you play higher stakes, but at smaller games bet/folding the river is a huge mistake and hole in your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a gross over-simplification. As alimoe points out, you (correctly) advocated b/f on the river in another hand.

Part of the reason b/f is so often recommended on the river in these forums is that the hands being posted are marginal or otherwise difficult hands. It's not like I b/f the river a lot (I actually probably don't do the FOLD part as much as I should) in my own play, but I find myself suggesting it in response to posted hands a lot. (Oh, and fwiw, 8 months ago I thought that b/f on the river was the gospel straight from the Devil. It took me a while to come around.)

Against passive players, particularly loose-passives, b/f is an important weapon in your arsenal. You get value from poor hands that loose players will show down but not bet if checked to on the river, while losing the same amount you would if you check-called (since when a passive bets or raises, your TPNK, 2PTK hands are [censored]).

You don't use it against aggro players, recidivist bluffers, LAGs, or the like, but against passive players, be they tight or loose, and other forms of aquatic life it is very effective.

[BenA]

[ QUOTE ]
Part of the reason b/f is so often recommended on the river in these forums is that the hands being posted are marginal or otherwise difficult hands. It's not like I b/f the river a lot (I actually probably don't do the FOLD part as much as I should) in my own play, but I find myself suggesting it in response to posted hands a lot. (Oh, and fwiw, 8 months ago I thought that b/f on the river was the gospel straight from the Devil. It took me a while to come around.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent point. B/F HU on river OOP is not standard, but neither are most of the hands posted here. Although this hand was 3-handed, I think its just another wierd situation where it turns out to be the best line:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=1#Post6926608