Am I missing value bets?

TalkingDonkey · #1 07-31-2006, 11:23 PM

Let me know, should I try value betting these hands?

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

River: (3.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks.

Final Pot: 3.50 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has Js 2s (one pair, threes).
Hero has 6c 6h (two pair, sixes and threes).
MP3 has Qc Kc (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 3.50 BB. 

Hand 2
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (3.40 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (4.70 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP calls.

River: (6.70 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: 6.70 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd 3s (one pair, kings).
MP has Qd Td (high card, king).
Outcome: Hero wins 6.70 BB. 

Let me know fellas.

freedom18 · #2 07-31-2006, 11:28 PM

1st hand maybe u can fire out another on the turn... but usually im done after that flop very scared of aces =o

2nd hand is a fold, the pot is small typical example in SSHE (only time u can rly make this play is when the bet comes from the button who may not have anything or if u have a read)

OziBattler · #3 07-31-2006, 11:31 PM

reads please, if available

Hand 1: I bet the turn. You probably have the best hand and want those overcards outta there. give up if raised. River...well, I bet the turn and it plays differently then.
Hand 2: I assume you are calling a river bet so may as well bet the river unless you have a read that villian will fold anything other than top pair. Youll see a jack here often enough to make it worthwhile.

DrModern · #4 07-31-2006, 11:32 PM

These are where them reads come in so handy. I think on the first hand you should definitely keep firing until you meet some kind of resistance--you have all kinds of crazy value and fold equity here. On the second one I don't see any reason to go for a CR on the flop. I usually fire right out with top pair here. But even as you played it, I see no reason to stop short on the not-so-scary river.

DrModern · #5 07-31-2006, 11:35 PM

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2nd hand is a fold, the pot is small typical example in SSHE (only time u can rly make this play is when the bet comes from the button who may not have anything or if u have a read)

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Um, why would you fold top pair here? Check-folding here is super weak!

Xhad · #6 07-31-2006, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

2nd hand is a fold, the pot is small typical example in SSHE (only time u can rly make this play is when the bet comes from the button who may not have anything or if u have a read)

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Um, why would you fold top pair here? Check-folding here is super weak!

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Not with no kicker in a 3SB pot against an UTG bet it isn't.

DrModern · #7 07-31-2006, 11:40 PM

IMO there just isn't a reason not to bet out with top pair here. Small field, no aggression so far, decent holding--I don't see anything that should convince us that this bet isn't for value.

feroder_zb · #8 07-31-2006, 11:53 PM

Because the pot is so small, it requires Hero to be ahead more often to make a value bet correct than if the pot were larger. As it lies with 3.5 SB in the pot, Hero is laying himself 3.5 to 1 odds on a bet. For this to be for value that means that Hero needs to have the best hand about 22% of the time. So if the same action occurred with this flop 100 times, Hero would have to have the best hand 22 of them to make his value bet correct, and w/ no kicker I just don't see this happening. Now if the pot were say 2x the size, then Hero would be getting 7 to 1 on a raise and would only need to be ahead 12.5% of the time - still probably not realistic, but getting closer. With a 12 SB pot, now were talking raise for value (although how Hero got into a 12 SB pot w/ K3o is beyond me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

It's a fold because Hero doesn't even have odds to call w/ 2 pair and trips outs. Hope this helps.

kerowo · #9 07-31-2006, 11:56 PM

What level are you playing at DR? When you start playing against more position aware players a bet from an UTG limper on a K high board into a small pot will be a much easier fold. Without a read a c/r here is dangerous because it will tend to drive weak K's into call down mode which isn't what you want.

DrModern · #10 07-31-2006, 11:59 PM

But what I'm saying is: why put yourself in the position of having to call a bet in this small a pot at all? As far as hero knows in this spot, he has the goods--his opponents could have limped with a huge number of hands. I am not arguing that check-raising is a good play, or that check-calling is a good play, but suggesting that with top pair in this small a pot against this few players, none have whom showed strength PF, we should *bet* and hope to pick up this small pot. Even if called, you'll get called by someone with middle pair a pretty significant portion of the time. In general, your opponents at these limits are not so l33t that they will only call with reasonable hands and reasonable odds.