Hand: H@££INGGOL vs DuyTheMaster NL5000 hand @ Stars

Vammakala · #1 07-09-2006, 06:02 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $50 BB (8 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

SB ($14668)
BB ($8623)
UTG ($5075)
UTG+1 ($5369)
MP1 ($5769)
MP2 ($7097)
CO ($3746)
Button ($5838)

Preflop:
MP1 calls $50, Button calls $50, SB calls $25, BB checks.

Flop: ($75) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (8 players)
SB bets $100, BB folds, MP1 calls $100, Button raises to $400, folds, MP1 calls $300.

Turn: ($975) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
MP1 bets $750, Button calls $750.

River: ($2475) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
MP1 checks, Button bets $1750, MP1 raises to $4569, Button folds.

Final Pot: $8794

This hand occured at NL5000 at PokerStars a few moments back. MP1 is the Stars superstar H@££INGGOL, known to be very aggressive (I'm sure ya'll know him) and Button is DuyTheMaster. SB in the hand is Nazgul18 if you feel it matters.

Basically the hand went down (timingwise) like this. The flop action was quite quick and it seemed quite straight forward, H@££INGGOL had a second or two pause before calling the raise. Duy called the bet on turn rather quickly. On river however, after H@££ quite quickly checked, Duy took some time - 15 to 20 seconds to think, before he made the bet. H@££INGGOL's raise was almost instantaneous as was Duy's fold.

So this struck to my amateur eyes as a horrible play (betting the river by Duy). H@££INGGOL called a bet and a raise on flop, it would be more than reasonable assume he could have two overs, a straight-draw, made hand like 2 pair or set. He bets out representing the king, but when second king appears, he suddendly shuts out. Duy thinks for a while and bets, but why would he bet here? If he was betting for value a hand like a ten, what does he expect to get a call from - especially if he can't stand a reraise from very aggressive opponent like H@££. If he had a draw and didn't make his hand - it seems very transparent to an amateur eye to bet there, and H@££ might've picked up on this.

Like I said, maybe there guys are playing on so much higher level, I just don't get it yet, but this play didn't make much sense to me, but I found it very intriquing in many ways - How would you read this hand? What do you think they held and does this make any sense to you at all?

Bigfoot · #2 07-09-2006, 11:08 PM

I don't play HSNL, but since no one has replied to this thread I'll throw in my two cents. Take into consideration this is just speculation as I have no idea how any of those players play and don't know what sort of hand range they limp with. H@ll could easily have a set or KJ there. He just calls the flop raise and leads out the turn to block against a straight/flush draw taking a free card and extract value from two pair (or worse). He checks the river because the 2nd king now counterfeits any flopped 2 pair hand (J7, J10, 107),and the flush and open ended straight didn't get there. This allows Duy to either bluff at the pot or "value bet" a worse holding setting up a checkraise situation. Duy could easily have something like K9 or KQ there (especially if both are hearts)and maybe even AK hearts (if he didnt raise pre). I'm guessing he probably had 3 kings there because he thought a while before his bet instead of autobetting a busted draw. He auto folded because he knew H@ll is unlikely (never?) to be bluffing there with worse.

AntonHeat · #3 07-09-2006, 11:23 PM

H@££INGGOL is just to good to not have anything at that point that isnt beating DUY

Vammakala · #4 07-10-2006, 02:35 AM

For what I see, H@££INGGOL appears to be a loonie, I've seen hands from him doing big big big raises like this with as low as jack high or bottom pair.

But Duy's bet didn't really make sense to me. When I was observing the hand, I was already thinking that should Duy bet, H@££ will most likely come over the top - without knowing their cards. It might've been a lucky guess for all that I know.

And what could Duy be betting here? If it was a bluff, I don't think it was a very good one. And if H@££ had two overcards to begin with (he plays a LOT of hands so it's not written in stone that he had those) so any of his two overcard draws would've completed.

The point is, if it was for value, why would Duy bet here with anything he can't call a raise with. I'm guessing HSNL is all about those small and tiny edges and valuebets you can get in, but his bet isn't that small and the only reasonable hand you can put him on appears to be a bluff or a bet with marginal hand and I think neither of them seem good in this spot.

Did he just mistep or is there a situation where this play would really make sense. And wouldn't Duy call H@££'s all-in with Kx? Probably would. People sometimes call him down with much less since he's a loonie. <3

Bigfoot · #5 07-10-2006, 03:19 AM

I think you're probably exaggerating how often H@ll will CR all in there with air. I doubt he is as much of a maniac as some people view him. As for Duy's bet, the fact it is strong is the point of it. The board is dangerous as straights, open trips and full houses are all possible hands based on the action. If Duy has a moderately strong holding for that board (ie. trip kings) or even air he's showing strength to be betting that river for that amount with the previous action because it represents a lot of very strong hands. The fact H@ll CR'd him there makes it likely that H@ll either has nothing at all or a very strong hand himself (ie. a full house). The reason I think this would be true is that H@ll could simply check/call any moderately strong holding and expect to win there enough time against that bet (ie. with a straight, trips w/ good kicker, etc.). Especially knowing that if he CR'd a hand like a straight there and Duy called its very unlikely he's ever winning the showdown, but alternatively if he check calls Duy's bet he'd be much more likely to win as he's picking off bluffs and "value bets" by worse hands.

Anyway, the river was probably a specific situation where he knows Duy is betting (and perhaps calling a CR) with a worse hand more often than he is calling or raising H@ll with a worse hand if he leads the river himself. To summarize my rambling, with the river CR H@ll is representing a full house. Duy obviously didn't have anything nearly that strong so he instamucked his hand. It was probably a good fold on Duy's part because if you look at the hand from H@ll's perspective (disregarding preflop since I don't have any idea if its common for them to limp smaller pairs) it isn't impossible for Duy to have something like 77 there. Duy raised the drawy flop, froze when H@ll donked the turn and then bet when the river paired and was checked to him.

Vammakala · #6 07-10-2006, 04:09 AM

I guess you've got a point there, but if Duy had less than a boat but a hand that could win him a showdown, why give not just check, that's kind of what doesn't make sense to me. It's like Ferguson explains in his article that betting a marginal hand in the river is often bad whilst checkcalling (in this case checking) can win him a showdown large % of time.

Representing "a big" hand here doesn't appear so wise as he just called the turn bet. If he just calls the turn and doesn't raise there, it would appear that the king did not help his hand - when second king appears, he decides to bet after H@££'s front bet on turn. H@££'s turn bet could easily be a blocker to keep the potsize reasonable with something like top pair, or build up an art move for the river (like it did here).

At lower stakes, check calling the flop and front betting the turn is a good way to control the potsize and keep it on a "reasonable" level. It might be that H@££ was representing a small pot hand in this one, Duy picked up on that and H@££ actually had a monster. Or he picked up on Duy picking up on this [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I think I might be overanalyzing this though. But in fact, some hands later, almost same scenario appeared where Duy again betfolded in like $7k pot.

Does anyone have any info on the Duy guy by the way? I've seen him at Stars NL$2k before oooften, but I really don't know much about his style. -.-v

klonpucko · #7 07-10-2006, 06:48 AM

dood thinks h@ll has a straight he will lay down?

pleasefish · #8 07-10-2006, 07:52 AM

The way it was played the hand that makes the most sense for Duy to have is K9 or Kxh. He just called on the button preflop, raised on the flop with a double-belly buster or flush draw, called the turn with his strong draw, then value bet the river with his set planning to fold to a push.

It's also possible that he flopped two pair, got counterfeit, and then made a bluff on the river.

GimmeDaWatch · #9 07-10-2006, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
For what I see, H@££INGGOL appears to be a loonie, I've seen hands from him doing big big big raises like this with as low as jack high or bottom pair.

This thread is kind of silly. Yes, H@ll is a serious LAG as everyone knows, and is capable of bluffing most or all of his stack with anything. That said, he has a big hand more often than not when he's playing a big pot, and this hand doesn't appear to be an exception.

Vammakala · #10 07-10-2006, 02:01 PM

Well it wasn't about so much about what H@££ had as much as a question of why Duy would bet there etc. -.-v