Stars $162: facing a draw or big hand?

uclabruinz · #1 06-10-2006, 10:08 AM

Here is the hand (you need a free registration with pokerxfactor to see it):

Animated hand at pokerxfactor

I checked the flop to see how the hand developed, expecting at least one bet. Rory's minbet could have been a draw, a mediocre hand, or just a big stack in position seeing if he could take down the hand for cheap. So I figured a significant c/r would tell me all I needed to know. When he pushed everything seemed to add up to a draw, with the pre-flop limp, minbet, and then push. Would you make the call of his push?

Ansky · #2 06-10-2006, 10:30 AM

I don't like check-raising this flop because villain will fold nearly every hand you beat, and very often put you to a tough test if he has any kind of a draw. In addition, it's not like you really "see where you are at" when you make a raise, because he will still very often make this call with AQ, AT, diamonds, KQ, QT, etc, and you will very often shut down on the turn. When you raise here you are simply building the pot out of position with a pretty marginal hand and it's not that hard for the villain to "outplay" you with his positional and chip advantage.

Alternatively, I might just go into check/call mode in a hand like this, or possibly call flop and lead turn. In general I think I prefer this line because it helps manage the size of the pot better, and forces the villain to define his hand better- at least somewhat. It is much less likely for the villain to make a huge ballsy play when you lead the turn.

uclabruinz · #3 06-10-2006, 10:33 AM

I agree, excellent analysis.

John Shiznit · #4 06-10-2006, 10:43 AM

The problem with the check raise on the flop for me is alot of players take it as a sign of a mediocre type hand. (which it generally was so i dont use it much anymore.)

nath · #5 06-10-2006, 11:47 AM

Yeah, the real problem is that since the board is so drawy and villain has such a large stack your C/R doesn't really inform you as to whether he has a better hand or a draw. If you had a weaker hand, or there weren't so many draws, I'd like it because you can fold to a 3-bet pretty comfortably.
In this case I think check/call and lead the turn is better, although if villain is aggressive with a big stack he might still pop you on a draw. You may want to check/call twice, actually.
What cards do you consider bad turns? (A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would be the worst I'd think and either an ace or a diamond isn't good.) And do you check fold if they hit? (Probably.) What about a K or T?

Meh, maybe check/call/lead is best. I'm just not sure.

bruce · #6 06-10-2006, 01:58 PM

By checkraising you have inflated the pot OOP on a very drawish board. I prefer leading the flop and reevaluate from there or check/call the flop and lead the turn. I want to play a small pot OOP.

Bruce

JSchnett · #7 06-10-2006, 02:01 PM

i dont like check raising, i probably check call and check the turn

sheetsworld · #8 06-10-2006, 03:46 PM

Not to be devils advocate or anything, but I almost never check raise there...when you fear a draw the last thing you want is to give the draw a chance to semi bluff you for all of your chips...i check call lead about 40% of the time...check call check another 30% there.... and lead call ck the other 30%....

To be honest though I am not so sure I evern complete the big blind in the first place with a huge stack already in the pot..kt is so bad.

sheets

NHFunkii · #9 06-10-2006, 06:55 PM

agree with ansky/sheets, but

sheets, you don't complete with KT there? wtf?

NoahSD · #10 06-10-2006, 06:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like check-raising this flop because villain will fold nearly every hand you beat, and very often put you to a tough test if he has any kind of a draw. In addition, it's not like you really "see where you are at" when you make a raise, because he will still very often make this call with AQ, AT, diamonds, KQ, QT, etc, and you will very often shut down on the turn. When you raise here you are simply building the pot out of position with a pretty marginal hand and it's not that hard for the villain to "outplay" you with his positional and chip advantage.

Alternatively, I might just go into check/call mode in a hand like this, or possibly call flop and lead turn. In general I think I prefer this line because it helps manage the size of the pot better, and forces the villain to define his hand better- at least somewhat. It is much less likely for the villain to make a huge ballsy play when you lead the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

/thread