5C Draw - gutshot or draw 4?

[Fishy McDonk]

Limit Draw:

Say I'm the BB, everyone passes to SB who limps. He draws 3 and I have something like 679TA. Do I go for the gutshot or draw 4?

[mpanzer]

First of all, if the SB just limps you should raise instead of checking, IMO. He's probably just taking a cheap draw anyway. And you can take the pot with the worst hand right now.

In the very unlikely event he re-raises you have an easy fold.

In the very unlikely event he calls and draws 3 cards you could either draw 4 keeping the ace or draw 3 keeping AT. The gutshot is the worse option IMO, because your cards are somewhat low ranked, unless you are sure he will take it as a 2-pair.

After draw it depends, as always...

[oddsock]

If you have no reads on the opponent and you are not happy to raise before the draw then draw 4, keep the ace always. Far easier to draw a pair of Aces than to hit pretty much a 12/1 straight draw and there is always the chance you will win with A high. You will lose regardless if you dont hit your miracle.

[gwhiz_612]

Even if you did draw 1 and hit your miracle. How much action are you going to get when you raise/reraise after a one card draw. Unless your opponent is very poor he will likely fold or check call puttuing you on at the worst 2 pair.

[SoCalPat]

Just check, don't raise, unless you're up against an SB who you know will limp/fold to a raise. There are simply too many players who will play any pair here, and then what do you do if you miss and he improves (or worse, he's uber-tight and limps with any pair) and it's checked down? You'll have to show your cards, and you'll be giving out info you'd rather not let others see. Personally, I think raising here is just spewing chips.

Especially since there's a decent chance you already have the best hand here to begin with, and it will stay that way after the draw. Keep the ace and ten, since if your opponent has a pair, it's almost certainly lower than tens (most would raise with jacks or better here).

I don't like drawing four because you're screaming that you have nothing, and you'll get players to try and knock you off what might be the winning hand, or a hand you'd like to get a showdown with (example, if you pair your ace or 10). Obviously, with a stronger hand, that changes.

I never go for the gutshot in this scenario for the simple reason that if your opponent has no pair, you're likely ahead and can improve to bigger hands than he can. Conversely, it's almost impossible to win with 10-high.

[stripsqueez]

i dont raise much in this position unless i have a specific plan for this opponent which isnt common - the SB made a big mistake when he didnt raise so hes paying for it by me just checking and taking my free draw

i wouldnt even contemplate drawing to a gutshot straight - i draw to A10 - i pretty much never draw 4 in this spot - i think (but so far the rest of the world disagrees) that drawing 4 induces a bluff from all but the most passive opponents and i dont think thats in my best interests

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[Tom Bayes]

My standard line here would be to check and draw 3 to the AT, for the same reasons that others have mentioned. I don't like the raise since we are probably behind unless the SB is particularly prone to limp-folding (not a common trait). Even if the SB is limping with a weak drawing hand like a low straight or low flush (we don't know he's drawing 3 yet), I'm not excited enough about this hand to want to bet yet.

I like drawing three because it minimizes the chance of the SB automatically betting out post-draw even if he fails to improve and it will give us a chance to cheaply showdown one pair or ace high (yes, ace high will sometimes win in this situation) and to get away from the hand if he does improve to two pair or better.

Again, to sound like a broken record, I would hate drawing at the gutshot because we will have little chance to win the hand if we totally miss, although we might sneak out a win if we pair up and beat his lower unimproved pair. I don't want to give up my Ace in this situation. In my experience, I've won lots of hands with Ace high when the SB limped and drew 3 to a phantom pair. SB could be drawing to Ace-face or something totally ridiculous.

[mpanzer]

I'd guess you all are talking about ring games - I am still a raiser in this situation in tournament play, even though I do realise just calling could be safer. And, at least in Tournaments [PL, not Limit], drawing four sometimes stops the SB from betting after-draw if he has a small pair or doesn't improve. And if you hit a miracle you certainly double up, am I right Tom?

[Fishy McDonk]

Are you saying that you raise and draw 4 if called?

[mpanzer]

Seldom.
1. If I guess/feel/know this will stop SB from betting post-draw.
2. If I guess/feel/know this will favour me next time I'll be in the same spot.