Day of the turn maniacs

Ignignokt · #1 05-22-2006, 02:12 AM

I was going to post this to the ML NC thread, but it's kinda content: has anyone else noticed that it's starting to become standard for many opponents to raise (if in position) or checkraise (if OOP) the turn -- no matter what?

Two examples:

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, CO calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

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PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, MP calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, MP calls.

Turn: (5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB raises, MP folds, Hero calls.

River: (9 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB
(Hint: villain had no ace, no club and no pocket pair)

I mean, if they're ahead, they check/call flop checkraise turn. If they're ace high, check/call flop checkraise turn. Total bluff: check/call flop checkraise turn. Flopped flush draw: call flop raise turn seems to be the new free card play.

It might be something more common at 3/6 than lower limits, I don't know, but it makes for some wild play with marginal hands (when I don't choose to check through the turn and call the river, or just start out by checking and let the bettor bet).

Usylesses · #2 05-22-2006, 02:18 AM

I'm experementing w trying to push tigt players off of their holdings if they look weak, but not on boards this coordinated. Both of these look like really bad plays on their part. Hey; buddy list both of them.

TheHip41 · #3 05-22-2006, 03:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm experementing w trying to push tigt players off of their holdings if they look weak, but not on boards this coordinated. Both of these look like really bad plays on their part. Hey; buddy list both of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

why, so you get to make hard decisions every hand? No thanks, I'll take my money loose and passive.

Ignignokt · #4 05-22-2006, 03:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take my money loose and passive.

[/ QUOTE ]
Loose and passive isn't as common at 3/6. You'll spend a lot of time looking for a 50/7/.5 table, and if you do find one, guaranteed a 60/20/3 will sit down at some point, attracted by the same looseness.

I'll take a LAG any day, as long as he's on my right.

Roy6 · #5 05-22-2006, 06:53 AM

Sorry for hijacking, but I'm unsure: in Hand2 you split with any Kx, right? (lose to KJ on river)

Usylesses · #6 05-22-2006, 10:32 AM

I actually don't look for room vpip at all when i'm looking for tables. You make most of your money from the player to your right so i like to find players w vpip over 60, sit to their left and then isolation raise them until the cows come home. Now these big fish attract a lot of very tight players and while 90% of my income comes from these megafish there is money to b made off of "good" players on autopilot. I wish I could claim some originality here, but it's all about Ed Miller and efficacy. These links are pretty good for what im talking about.

Finding Raul
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showth...e=5#Post5869211

Beating Raul
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/a.../article12.htm

The extra bets from weak tight on autopilot
http://www.notedpokerauthority.com/articles/article19

Does anyone know how to make these links less ugly?

Ignignokt · #7 05-22-2006, 11:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for hijacking, but I'm unsure: in Hand2 you split with any Kx, right? (lose to KJ on river)

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be correct. Interestingly, villain had no K either.

Absolution · #8 05-22-2006, 12:17 PM

I think this is just a consequence of 'better' players understanding that they get more credit on the turn than on the flop. Some good player's favorite move is the delayed continuation bet (more of a NL thing). However, just like micro players go nuts on the flop where the bets are cheap, 'better' players bluff too much on the turn without considering whether or not they may actually be believed.

Delphin · #9 05-22-2006, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That would be correct. Interestingly, villain had no K either.

[/ QUOTE ]

J2o?

FishNChips · #10 05-22-2006, 05:39 PM

Is it OK that I don't like your play on hand2? Unless you've got a read on villain that you're not giving us why in the world would you think you're ahead often enough on that turn to make calling a c/r and calling a river bet +EV?

I must be missing something?

FishNChips