2-7 TD, Calling Pre-Flop

[F8thless]

Here's another one I don't understand, but I see even good players do it all the time:

Calling a single raise pre-flop, in position, even on the button. In SS2, DN says that it's generally better to raise or fold pre-flop, and if your hand isn't worth 3-betting, it's probably worth folding. Personally, I never smooth call out of the big blind, unless I have a wheel. My reasoning is that I want to get it heads up with position, and I want the blinds out. On the button you have position, but it is always preferable to be heads up as well.

I would assume that people would re-raise with 234 or 237, so does that mean their calling with hands like 256 or 267, in which case maybe they should be folding? If they are calling with weak hands, is it +EV, and if it is, are you giving away too much information? Even with a bad draw, would you be better off re-raising?

A related point: In hold'em, I think it's generally considered best to re-raise from the small blind against a possible steal, if you are going to play, to try to get the big blind out. In TD, should you still re-raise with good 2 card draw, even OOP, should you call with weak 2 card draws or just fold, and should you call with good 3 card draws from the small, or just fold?

I see good players call in position and from the small blind, so I'm just wondering if this is a good idea, and if so, what hands to do it with.

[MarkGritter]

I will maybe write a longer reply later... but reraising from the SB is not necessarily something you want to get into the habit of doing automatically.

In the SB, position works against you rather than for you. You'd rather put less money in. A hand like 732 is probably worth playing but you might not want to reraise.

This has to be balanced against the disadvantages of playing OOP 3-handed instead of 2-handed. So your decision needs to be influenced by the character of the BB. If he is tight enough that he will not enter without a quality starter, you can probably just call. If he is going to play anything remotely playable even for two bets, the extra bet just bloats the pot.

A hand like 732 might actually welcome another player in the pot if it hits a 4, 5, or 6--- and you might want to fold a small pot if the original raiser shows strength. A hand like 8742 probably doesn't want the third player around, and reraising it will disguise your hand strength, and force BB to better define his hand (so you can decide to dump the 8.)

[DustinG]

[ QUOTE ]

Calling a single raise pre-flop, in position, even on the button. In SS2, DN says that it's generally better to raise or fold pre-flop, and if your hand isn't worth 3-betting, it's probably worth folding.


[/ QUOTE ]
.
This is where I dont always agree with Negreanu. If I cold call a raise on the button with 237 and the blinds get involved too, if someone could show me how I'm losing money there I'd be surprised. Though it certainly may increase variance to allow pots to get multiway, I think getting involved in muliway pots with premium draws is only going to add +ev. I'm most inclined to 3 bet when not on the button. Or if the raiser plays badly. If the blinds play badly and I'm on the button why not let them in??

DN also says that "that there are four other two-card draws starting hands that should be played in most situations. They are the draws that contains a 6 that could still make you a 7-low." p476

So that means if a loose players raises we are supposed to 3 bet 256??? Ugh. If I am on the button and a loose/bad player raises I may call with 236. But that is as much as I'm opening up.

[ QUOTE ]

Personally, I never smooth call out of the big blind, unless I have a wheel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its rarely correct to slowplay a wheel ever imo. You are giving your hand away to good players. If someone limps or limp reraises and is pat I run and hide.


[ QUOTE ]

I would assume that people would re-raise with 234 or 237, so does that mean their calling with hands like 256 or 267, in which case maybe they should be folding? If they are calling with weak hands, is it +EV, and if it is, are you giving away too much information? Even with a bad draw, would you be better off re-raising?


[/ QUOTE ]

Since the roughest I'll be If I cold-call a raise is 267, if they want to think I'm rough when I'm not thats fine.

[ QUOTE ]

In TD, should you still re-raise with good 2 card draw, even OOP, should you call with weak 2 card draws or just fold, and should you call with good 3 card draws from the small, or just fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

You have to call a single raise from the big blind even with a hand as rough as 256. But you shouldn't reraise a two card draw oop unless you are playing HU imo. TD is a highly positional game and I dont want to swell pots with a 2 card draw oop. If the pot is muliway I think you can fold 268. What to do with other 8 draws I dont know?? I call a single raise w/ 238, 248, 258. If anyone folds here in a multiway pot let me know.

[ QUOTE ]

I see good players call in position and from the small blind, so I'm just wondering if this is a good idea, and if so, what hands to do it with.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am calling a raise outside of the big blind, then I can almost guarantee you that I have either 234, 235, 245, 237, 247, 257, or 267.

[F8thless]

I think what you wrote are great points that I will def. consider when playing and I would love to hear more if you have the time for a longer post.

Would you re-raise from the small with 234 or any others strictly for value, say you suspected the button had a very rough hand or a 3 card draw and was stealing, even if you thought the big might fold on his own?

Would you ever call and draw 3 out of the small with something like 23 or 27, especially if you were playing 3 or 4 handed?

Dustin, also great points.

[F8thless]

I agree that smooth calling with a wheel gives your hand away against good players, but I am always suprised how people will draw against it and even call the river. It's also a chance I'm willing to take rather than to only get the blinds, as to me, it's seems higher EV to try to get as many people in as possible when you can't lose, than to risk only getting the blinds with a sure thing.

About the raise or fold thing. I def. think you want to raise or fold anytime not on the button. I am starting to come around on the idea of calling on the button as well, and I agree with what you are saying about SS2. You will def. have more variance, but also probably higher EV. The one reason to be HU, is that if the game were tight/aggressive, which I would guess the games he plays in usually are, If you re-raise, the BB is making a mistake by drawing 3, and he generally needs a real hand for 2 bets OOP, but if you just call and he's getting 5.5-1, that's enough for 23, 24, 25, or 27. Then if he bets the flop and the MP player raises as he should with any 1 card draw, you will be making a mistake if you call and have to draw 2. So I'm guessing that's his reasoning for re-raising on the button. You're also getting more money in with position with a good hand, which isn't a bad thing.

Would you agree with the idea of re-raising good 2 card draws in an aggressive game?

Very good points though.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
If I am calling a raise outside of the big blind, then I can almost guarantee you that I have either 234, 235, 245, 237, 247, 257, or 267.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also one of the things that makes you so easy to read. You will get crushed at the bigger games if you are this obvious.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[DustinG]

[ QUOTE ]

This is also one of the things that makes you so easy to read. You will get crushed at the bigger games if you are this obvious.


[/ QUOTE ]

TT,

I'm not sure what you mean at all. It doesn't seem like you would suggest that I start calling raises with sub-par hands in order to make my game tougher? Or are you just suggesting that I start taking advantage of position more by getting involved with some weaker hands against weak opponents? Or just that I play ABC post-draw and need to start mixing it up more and making more creative plays. Please elaborate.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is also one of the things that makes you so easy to read. You will get crushed at the bigger games if you are this obvious.


[/ QUOTE ]

TT,

I'm not sure what you mean at all. It doesn't seem like you would suggest that I start calling raises with sub-par hands in order to make my game tougher? Or are you just suggesting that I start taking advantage of position more by getting involved with some weaker hands against weak opponents? Or just that I play ABC post-draw and need to start mixing it up more and making more creative plays. Please elaborate.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, I'll revise my statement.

This is also one of the things that makes you so easy to read. You will get crushed by better playing opponents who read hands wellif you are this obvious.

Poker is not 100% ABC, its a situational game. Its not black & white, that tends to be the way you see things both based on the posts I've seen you make here and briefly playing with you online. When your opponents can easily read you then you have lost your edge.

Think outside of the box, you will be better off. You post offered good guidelines, but its not the best thing in all situations.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

[Xellos]

I didn't read any replies yet.

I 3bet 100% of the time if someone has raised in front of my and I want to play my hand and nobody has called the raise in between. If someone has limped before the raiser I will 3bet and hope that the limper folds, though they never do. If the CO/Button raise and I'm in the sb then I 3bet if I want to play. I will do anything to get the pot HU, even if I'm going to be OOP. If some goofball has already coldcalled a raise and I have a good 2 card draw then I will generally just call if I want to play if I'm on the button, but may well 3bet if I'm not. The pot is already multiway, so I figure I may as well try to make a hand cheaply and punish them later in the hand if I get something.

[dibbs]

I liked SS2's section and learned a lot of it, but it has kind of a cookie-cutter balls to the wall aggression tone to it that is oversimplified I think.

I mix up 237xx 234xx etc on the button to a single raiser, partially to hide the times you have 236xx etc but also because if one of the blinds is a real monkey and simply can't fold lots of crap for one more bet I want him in, that might be mathematically incorrect, DN did stress that you want pots HU whenever possible, I'm still not sure that's correct all the time. ANYONE GOT SOME MATH?? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I have a natural tendency to try and buy the button meaning Im 3betting much more in the CO, but thing is if button has a hand he wants to play, most guys are going to play it, whether it costs them two sbs or three, but I think you should often do it anyways, for value and to keep an aggressive image and not telegraph your really strong 1 draws.


I hate playing in the SB and take it really slow in this spot, bloated pots OOP just suck, but you have to mix it up once in a while so your opponents dont KNOW youre on a 1 carddraw if you get frisky in the SB.