2/4 B&M - two bluff hands

[gobbledygeek]

2/4 B&M, 10 handed, usually loose & passive though right now this table is a little bit more tighter than usual

I suck when only a couple of players see the flop (which is unusual at my 2/4 B&M table). I find in these cases that if I'm the preflop aggressor I usually just keep betting until I'm told I might be no good. But in small pots is this the way to go?


HAND 1:

Button is regular 4/8 player who has just joined the table after his table fell apart. Just seen him preflop raise K2s after a couple of limpers then play passively after flopping two pair. He's also bluffed at pots a couple of times on the river then mucked his hand as soon as he was called.

MP1 is way too loose preflop. He's aggressive if he has part of the flop or thinks he's got the best hand. The river he seems to fluctuate between calling to keep people honest vs folding ok hands when he thinks he's beat.

Preflop (10 players): Hero is BB with Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
MP1 calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, all call

Flop (4 players, 8 SB): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
SB checks, Hero bets, MP1 calls, Button raises, SB folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls

Turn (3 players, 7 BB): 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button checks

River (3 players, 7 BB): J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets...


HAND 2:

BB is MP1 from previous hand. He saw my previous hand bluff but other than that when he's called me on the river I've always had the goods (including when I bet a flopped pair of A's and turn trip A's all the way).

Preflop (10 players): Hero is MP3 with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
folds to Hero who raises, SB calls, BB calls

Flop (3 players, 6 SB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
checked to Hero who bets, SB folds, BB calls

Turn (2 players, 4 BB): 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls

River (2 players, 6 BB): Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, Hero bets...

Are these both fairly standard? Or major spew?

GcluelessnoobG

[Hair_of_the_Dog]

I like your bluff in Hand 1. It looks like he was on a flush draw and that he raised the flop to get a free card. uhh...I just noticed that there are 3 players in the hand. Bluffing 2+ players can be tough. If your image is very tight you might get away with it. I sometimes do, but it is usually on the turn.

I'd say that Hand 2 BB prolly has a 4 and fears that you have a bigger pair. He's likely to call down.

[Niediam]

I dislike both of them.

I don't like the continuation bet in hand 1 btw. If there was only one opponent on the river I think a bluff could be fine but I don't think you are getting two opponents to fold enough.

In hand 2 villian is going to call you with any pair 100% of the time. So if you are trying to get him off of a hand it's going to have to be specifically ace high and he very well may call with that anyhow. A bluff here would make a lot more sense if you hand was something like JT instead.

[fishyak]

ANY bluffing @ 2/4 (no fold'em hold'em) might be considered major spew. Actually, if bluffing is to work, you choice to "pound away" on smaller pots with fewer opponents has a greater liklihood of success than trying that against the whole table. Your write up also suggests that we have a table image to consider. Do you quack like a maniac?

I think it is VERY difficult for anyone here to comment of the specifics of a live bluff play without a lot more context than you give us. In general, I don't like it because at my live 2/4 tables there is always some calling station gumming up the works. But at your table and with your style, it might make perfect sense. The problem is those live factors are very difficult to isolate and discuss.

[mikeca]

In general, forget about bluffing in B&M 2/4. Most of the time they will just call you down with anything.

Hand 1:

I do not like raising QTs from the BB. I could see doing it from the button or CO, but you are going to be out of position for the rest of the hand.

I don’t like the continuation bet on the flop either. You really have a weak hand here. At best you have 6 or 7 very dirty outs here that need to be discounted down to maybe 3. At 2/4 you cannot assume this flop missed everybody or that players with Ax or Kx are going to fold to aggressive play. I would check and call one here.

On the turn C/F looks like the only option

On the river you have two opponents. Unless they are both tight players here, which is really rare in B&M 2/4, nobody who has you beat is going to fold here, so the bluff makes no sense. Many 2/4 players will call down here with A or K high.

Hand 2:

Bluffing at this flop is representing you have a high pocket pair, because they are not going to believe you have a 6 or a 4. Again, bluffing at the river is unlikely to get most 2/4 players to fold anything you beat.

The only way these bluffs would make sense is if you have been having trouble getting people to call you down when you do have the goods. If that was the case, then I could see doing this, but I would not recommend trying to bluff at all in most B&M 2/4 games.

[KitCloudkicker]

fwiw, i usually advocate raising QTs pf here. however the Cbet is bad...and if this is a Cbet you usually make, i wouldnt raise PF.

in general, bluffing and 2/4 = lol, imo.

in hand 1, the Jack isnt a particularly scary card. you're getting called by ace high and any pair.

in hand 2, three sixes are on board. ace high and any pair is calling all day. king jack high might call too.

[gobbledygeek]

Thanks for the feedback. I very rarely bluff at my usual 2/4 table. With 7+ to the flop I usually assume the flop has hit someone and so I just play fairly straightforwardly; bluffing into half a dozen calling stations obviously doesn't make sense. But when the table tightens up (like it had in these cases, and at my table 3/4 to a flop is considered rock tight) I find myself overvalueing and overplaying my hands especially against tighter players who are fond of making good folds, to mixed results. I know a lot of this depends on who's at the table (FWIW, A high is very rarely calling on the river at my table) but it seems I might have to slow down a bit in these situations.

[TheCount212]

I dunno... I guess these are ok. But bluffing at low limit is a losing proposition for the most part. The best times are when you have 2-4 players to the flop and an A or a straight or flush board hits. Those three textures are the most ripe for stealing by betting out. Sometimes a paired board will scare off customers as well, but usually not as much as these three situations.

[mikeca]

By the way, generally when a 2/4 game gets tight, it is time to ask for a table change or call it a night. With the rake structure in most B&M establishments and tipping, tight 2/4 games are usually not worth playing.

[dedenburn]

I found an equation to answer your questions...

2/4 b&m + bluffing = -EV