Played it passive, now go for overcall?

[ninjabumpd]

no reads, just sat. again, not sure about earlier play either, but as played to you overcall here?


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (10SB, 5 players)
SB checks, hero checks, UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, SB calls, hero calls, UTG calls, CO folds.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7BB, 4 players)
SB checks, hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, SB calls, hero calls, UTG calls.

River: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (11BB, 4 players)
SB checks, hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets</font>, Button folds, SB calls, hero folds.

Results:
Final pot: 13BB

[Oink]

I would raise the flop to protect my hand. Raising in multiway pots also defines your relative strength better as people tend to play more honest multiway.

I wouldnt worry that much about SB by the river, he has Tx or 8x or even worse. The pot is big and UTG's donk seems weird - I call.

[AnimalMidnight]

As played, I think you have to call the river. It's a big pot.

As Oink said, SB looks a lot like a T or an 8, could be a lower pocket pair, now and then Axdd/AQ/AJ. The donk from UTG could certainly be a K, but it could also be a T (some of which you beat/tie), or a terrible bluff after missing one of the many flop draws.

And yeah, after CO checks and button bets, I think you should usually raise the flop here. By raising you'll sometimes get CO to fold a hand which should call (AJ/AQ), and once in a blue moon UTG might fold a T (at a stretch, a fruitily-played QQ/JJ) rather than calling 2 bets cold, which would be great. And you want to take away the button's option of checking through the turn w/ a decent draw, A-high, or a smaller pair.

[Kvacke]

I dont really like my middle pair middle kicker in a four way pot - I like to c/r to protect my pair on the flop, and that is what I would do if I thought that Im ahead of button often enough and want to fight for the pot. If I just peel like here Im planning to fold the turn UI.

[guenttrs]

I would c/f the flop.

reasons:
1) Hero dont have the best hand (marginal hand against 4)
2) Bad position.
3) Hero has completely to discount the J outs because of hands like AQ, KJ and the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes a flush.
Hero draws to 3 Outs and can easily be dominated by AT, KT ...

Edit: To answer your question. Fold river UTG wakes up and donks into the aggressor, i cant see u often enough ahead.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
I would c/f the flop.

reasons:
1) Hero dont have the best hand (marginal hand against 4)
2) Bad position.
3) Hero has completely to discount the J outs because of hands like AQ, KJ and the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes a flush.
Hero draws to 3 Outs and can easily be dominated by AT, KT ...

Edit: To answer your question. Fold river UTG wakes up and donks into the aggressor, i cant see u often enough ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding the flop is way too weak IMO.

The flop gets checked around to button who bets. Button can have: flush draw, QJ, AJ, AQ, Kx, Tx, 8x.

Another thing is Hero's backdoor draws. Any A, Q, 9 and 7 gives Hero a straight draw and any [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] gives Hero a flush draw. These are worth at least a couple of outs.

[guenttrs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would c/f the flop.

reasons:
1) Hero dont have the best hand (marginal hand against 4)
2) Bad position.
3) Hero has completely to discount the J outs because of hands like AQ, KJ and the J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] makes a flush.
Hero draws to 3 Outs and can easily be dominated by AT, KT ...

Edit: To answer your question. Fold river UTG wakes up and donks into the aggressor, i cant see u often enough ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding the flop is way too weak IMO.

The flop gets checked around to button who bets. Button can have: flush draw, QJ, AJ, AQ, Kx, Tx, 8x.

Another thing is Hero's backdoor draws. Any A, Q, 9 and 7 gives Hero a straight draw and any [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] gives Hero a flush draw. These are worth at least a couple of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you Oink for your reply. You make a good point about
the backdoorflushdraw. But I can find some reverse implied odds, when hero has to split a possible straight and looses against bigger flushes on this board. Still the danger of domination is huge here. I think we agree this is a marginal hand with difficult to count clean outs on the flop. Playing those marginal hands well will be the key to master this game.

Maybe your right and i play to weak tight. But to improve my play i work especially on position and number of opponents. Both factors seems bad for Hero.

[AnimalMidnight]

I couldn't ever check/fold this flop. If CO (the pfrsr) had bet this flop, there's a case for taking one off and folding the turn unimproved if he bets again. But he didn't - I'd expect 75-90% of online players to bet here in button's position with any 2 cards they coldcalled with preflop (22+/any board pair/any draw/A-high). Checking and folding to this bet is terrible IMO.

Check/call and folding a turn blank is a better option as btn should now (with 3 flop callers) take a free card with his draws, so a bet is more likely to indicate JT is beat. But this line allows button to bet his good hands and take a free card for his draws (possibly as weak as A-high/underpair), so I think the flop raise looks even better. After raising the flop, we can still fold to a flop 3bet &amp; turn bet or a turn raise, and if we reach the river (board as OP), I think we can check and call a single bet.

[Verde]

Though spot for Hero. I'm going to say donk the turn, but I doubt that many will agree. Anyway here's why...

A check raise doesn't do much here on the flop. He'll most likely only get UTG to fold on a board this coordinated, if the BTN isn't on a complete bluff. (and we don't know that yet)
We probably have as quenttrs said 3 outs maybe 4, if we are behind. And maybe even reverse implied odds if we hit two pair. Still, I think folding on the flop in a 10 SB pot for one bet seams weak.

By betting the turn the button can define his hand. He'll prob call with his one paired hands maybe dropping tens with a worse kicker, we can call one extra bet from him, and our donkbet should confuse the rest of the players enough not to try a bluff raise. And if they do we probably have enough odds to peal, but we must fold the river UI.
If they just call, check the river.
If someone bets the river I'd let the rivercard, potodds and position of the better decide if I want to make a crying call or not but mostly I'd fold.

[guenttrs]

[ QUOTE ]
I couldn't ever check/fold this flop. If CO (the pfrsr) had bet this flop, there's a case for taking one off and folding the turn unimproved if he bets again. But he didn't - I'd expect 75-90% of online players to bet here in button's position with any 2 cards they coldcalled with preflop (22+/any board pair/any draw/A-high). Checking and folding to this bet is terrible IMO.

Check/call and folding a turn blank is a better option as btn should now (with 3 flop callers) take a free card with his draws, so a bet is more likely to indicate JT is beat. But this line allows button to bet his good hands and take a free card for his draws (possibly as weak as A-high/underpair), so I think the flop raise looks even better. After raising the flop, we can still fold to a flop 3bet &amp; turn bet or a turn raise, and if we reach the river (board as OP), I think we can check and call a single bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

What is your line for the turn after a flop c/r when at least sb and bu call. Will you lead the turn or c/c, c/f?