Top pair 2nd kicker but.......

[Elbie]

Party Poker 1/2 10 players

Reads: SB and BB are loose and rather passive. I have seen both of them make some plays postflop. HJ sat down recently. Sofar seems a bit laggy but no def. reads.

UTG and UTG1 fold, I raise K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in MP1, some folds, HJ 3bets, folded to SB who calls, BB calls, I call.

Flop J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

SB now bets, BB calls, I raise, HJ 3-bets, SB calls, BB folds, I call

Turn: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check, HJ bets, SB calls I?????

Comments on preflop and flop also welcome.

[sean c]

Pre flop and flop are good. You are getting 13:1 on the turn I wouldn't fold.

[Point Blank]

I'm not too sure about the flop raise ...

you said SB is pretty passive - and you have post flop info (by 'play' do you mean: 1/ an action that has given you information or, 2/ or bluffing)

anyways - you said SB is passive ... what type of hands is he cold calling 3 with then leading out the flop (HJ is laggy - but how loose is his 3bet?)

IMO you are in a bad spot on the flop - i think there is already a good chance that the passive guy leading out like that has you beat ... and having a possible aggro guy acting after you is dangerous

I would tend to call the donk and see what develops ... i don't think I like a raise because it kind of bloats the pots with a semi-OK hand (and will rope you into a call down if more actions develops)

i almost always assue an aggro guy will raise the flop after 3betting preflop ... with whatever he has

as played I think you made the pot large but you're really hoping SB has QJ and HJ has complete air ... as played I think you should fold - too much strength has been shown

any thing could change with additional information though

[Landonfan]

[ QUOTE ]
Pre flop and flop are good. You are getting 13:1 on the turn I wouldn't fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are we calling river UI?

[maverickai]

Elbie, what do you think HJ and SB's range are?

[Elbie]

The range of HJ? I have no clue. He has 3bet me preflop and also 3bet me on the flop. Combined with the turn bet that is a rather strong line. No real draws on the table so I guess he must have a rather strong made hand.

SB also worries me. As far as I've noticed he is on the passive side. First he calls 3 preflop and then he leads the flop into a raiser and a preflop 3-bettor. Rather worrying. I think he has to have at least top pair with good kicker; AJ, KJ maybe QJ. AA, KK, QQ are not totally out of the question. Possibly 88, 66 or 22 but less likely as such a hand probably would have raised the turn bet. I don't believe in any twopair combinations. J8, J6, J2s don't seem likely, given his preflop/flop play.

The question is; Can I ever be good here (on the turn)? Do I have odds to call the turn and are my river outs clean?

All combined I didn't think so and folded.

(Will provide the result of this hand later. It went to showdown)

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]


The question is; Can I ever be good here (on the turn)? Do I have odds to call the turn and are my river outs clean?

All combined I didn't think so and folded.



[/ QUOTE ]

elbie,

SB = loose passive and HJ = possible lag. The pot is huge you have top pair second kicker. You have five outs to improve. Are you ahead here? Not very often. Are your outs completely clean? No but this is the wrong place to try and start saving bets. Save bets when there are 3 small bets in the pot not here. Just my opinion but I am showing this down if it only costs me two more bets.

[Sushiglutton]

The pot is big and the aggressor looks like a LAG so far. I don't want to fold. I call turn and river if it's one bet. If SB leads the river I fold.

[Sushiglutton]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO you are in a bad spot on the flop - i think there is already a good chance that the passive guy leading out like that has you beat ... and having a possible aggro guy acting after you is dangerous

I would tend to call the donk and see what develops ... i don't think I like a raise because it kind of bloats the pots with a semi-OK hand (and will rope you into a call down if more actions develops)

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't calling the flop dangerous if HJ holds AQ,AKs for instance. We want both those hands out but if we call they will go nowhere.

[Elbie]

One of my reasons for raising the flop. HJ will probably call with AK and AQ anyway, but now he 3betted [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img], which I think is a strong play that should exclude those holdings