Playing from the Button with a raise in front

[neeeel]

Say you are on the button with QJo, and its folded round to CO, who raises, do you play, given that most of the time they are raising with weaker hands? What hands would you play to a CO raise? I dont want to cold call hands like this, but i dont feel its strong enough to raise either, so i usually fold. Am i wrong in thinking that most players who raise from the CO are raising with weakish hands. I know that if its folded to me in CO, and i have hands like K8s, QTo, Ax, i will consider trying to steal, depending on how tight the blinds are.
How about if you are on the button with 88, and MP2/3 open raises, and its folded round to you? I usually fold here too, although i know 88 is slight favorite against hands like AQ, AJ, I dont feel strong enough to 3-bet with 88

[fretelöo]

What range do you put him on? How does your hand fare vs. that range? Would you cold-call or 3bet? What are the advantages/disadvantages to both? What does --> pokerstove say to the prospects of playing QJo vs. a CO opener? 88 vs. an MP opener?

[Poker Plan]

[ QUOTE ]
What does --> pokerstove say to the prospects of playing QJo vs. a CO opener? 88 vs. an MP opener?

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I right in saying that 'Stove doesn't take positions into account?

[fretelöo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What does --> pokerstove say to the prospects of playing QJo vs. a CO opener? 88 vs. an MP opener?

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Am I right in saying that 'Stove doesn't take positions into account?

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Yes, sir, you are, however, that's why I asked for ranges first. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Neku]

I tend to fold this intuitively, but let's assume a villain with a range of 18 % in CO (any pair, any broadway): you're 60% vs. 40 % behind.

4,212,267,840 games 0.046 secs 91,571,040,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.364% 56.51% 02.86% 2380173888 120390756.00 { 22+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 40.636% 37.78% 02.86% 1591312440 120390756.00 { QJo }

[neeeel]

interesting neku. How do you put ranges of hands into pokerstove? How do you work out what hands will be ahead of their range, other than the obvious ones ?
So i guess im right to fold then, It seems right to me, just wondered if i was being too tight. Do people really open raise low pocket pairs? I tend to fold 22-55 if its folded to me in CO or MP. If the raiser is a LAG, do you re-raise them with QJo?

[Neku]

uh, you're talking like I know something [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

re pokerstove: you can choose the "PREFLOP" tab when you click on 'Player 1' (by default it will show "CARDS"). There you can choose a range by sliding the little ruler at the bottom. And you can use the "any pair" button or the "any broadway" too. This will give you a range. Then you say "apply". In 'Player 2', type your pocket cards (QJo) and say "enumerate all". That should do the trick.

[Guitierez]

[ QUOTE ]
Am i wrong in thinking that most players who raise from the CO are raising with weakish hands. I know that if its folded to me in CO, and i have hands like K8s, QTo, Ax, i will consider trying to steal, depending on how tight the blinds are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid, but I think you are. You are messing up a logical implication. To conclude "If he raises with weak hands, raising means his hand is weak" is flawed.
He raises with a lot more hands, so you might as well be up against a hand thats dominating you, and that's why its not recommended to cold call with QJo.

[NIX]

I agree that people open wider, from the CO, so I open up my 3betting range, but QJ usually doesn't cut it and I fold without a read. I'll rarely coldcall in this situation unless I have a good multiway hand like JTs or something and the blinds are quite loose so I can be pretty confident in there being a 4-way pot.

As for the 88 question, I'll 3bet if the raise came from MP2 or MP3. I'd 3-bet 77 as a default as well. If the raise was from earlier position like UTG+1 or so, I just fold.

[Bona]

I don't know about that. QJo is in the top 14% of hands but not in the top 13%. If you assume CO is playing by conventional wisdom and attempting to steal about 35% of the time it might lead you to call or raise here. But maybe that 35% is opening from the button so let's give him a tighter range of 25%. Still we look viable.

Since we are a little weak ourselves a fold is probably fine but if we choose to play it,say against a weaker or loose player, we have to raise to try to isolate CO.

Just thinking on paper here because I would likely fold it in play and am trying to learn a stronger decision making process.