4/8 QQ where I spew perhaps; and, I go crazy w/ 87o?

[egocidal]

HP 4/8 game. Standard passives and random aggros who are running hot in game. Main villain is in one of those 'playing every hand cause im hot now' modes, saying things like "what the hell, one time dealer" and putting chips out there like he will check, then faking a bet, then che---wait no he's betting. Basically an angle shooting dickwad.

Dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the button. 3 callers including MP villain (now known as angleshoot mcgee), I raise, all call.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Except wait! I don't see that the K is a spade, I just see all black. Give me a break, its 5 in the morning and I'm on another 12 hour shift here. I really need to stop doing that. So think about the hand two different ways: If its 3 spades, and if its just 2.

Ok, so Angleshoot mcgee leads, two folds, I raise. He 3 bets.
Ok, this guy's been playing almost any two, so his range is anything from a lone 4 to 94 to two hole card spades to Kx. He's been aggressive the whole time too, so its not like most passives live who wake up and bet out with TPTK or something. As I put my initial raise out there, I notice the board has three spades, not two and a club. Does that change this into a call instead?

Thoughts?

Lets just say I call [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Suppose the turn is the Ah. He bets, I fold.

I don't have the Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I'm 90% sure he has a two per.



Second hand:

87o in the BB. My reads on villain (CO) are written as such:
-called down 6t on 64J flop against 3 players, c/r a rivered 6.
So, nothing special about him.

All folds to the CO, who calls. THe button calls, SB completes, and I check.

Flop: A84 two hearts. SB checks, I bet, CO calls, button and SB fold.
I figure that my 8 is good, most of these guys would raise any A if it paired the flop, but that heart draw is like gold to them.

turn an offsuit 5. I bet, he calls.
That was a good card, low and offsuit, I still like my middle pair as best.

River 9h. I check, he checks.
I know checking in these games after betting the flop/turn comes across as really weak, and most HP players are tempted to bet because you showed weakness. However, I'm pretty prepared to call a river bet.

[jesse8888]

Hand 1: I honestly check/fold the flop with 3 spades. The flop you hallucinated is worth a raise, then a "fine I call one more bet" for 3 and a muck on the turn.

Hand 2: ni han, ni han

[*TT*]

Hand #1 your now heads up right?

Give me one good reason why a raise is good there, even if its K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

I think your about to see that your error was earlier than you thought.

[StrictlyStrategy]

You have the best hand a lot and he's not 3betting a worse hand.

Done.

[profpeebody]

[ QUOTE ]
Give me one good reason why a raise is good there, even if its K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].


[/ QUOTE ]

I think villain bets and calls a raise with many hands that we beat: 9, 4, spade draw, straight draw(QJ, QT, etc).

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
You have the best hand a lot and he's not 3betting a worse hand.

Done.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how does that maximize your EV? Stop thinking about the street, start thinking about the whole hand. Plan ahead. Hero cannot protect his hand, so......

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
You have the best hand a lot and he's not 3betting a worse hand.

Done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your answer makes sense if there are others left to act. Playing HU and playing multi-way are very different skills. Think out the hand.... try again.

[StrictlyStrategy]

Since you're the only one disagreeing with gaining an extra SB when villain is drawing to 5 outs at best, why not tell us?

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
Since you're the only one disagreeing with gaining an extra SB when villain is drawing to 5 outs at best, why not tell us?

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you think the villain is drawing to 5 outs? What if the villain has a queen? Or a flush draw?
there are numerous times the villain is ahead, also many times the villain is behind. Is the villain capable of folding bottom pair on the turn if he betting "to see where I stand"? Is the villain willing to re-pop you with a K, or maybe a flush draw with A high?

The line that maximizes value is call, of course adjust accordingly to the opponent. Raising will net you a SB sometimes, but it doesn't pay off compared to the times the villain will fold the following street, give you more action than you hoped for, or hopelessly bluff into you on all streets! Vs some opponents you can call two streets, fold to a river bet - keeping your loss minimized, while at other times you gain the maximum by keeping the villain in the hand.

[KitCloudkicker]

I agree with TT here.

the c/c/c line is one that I have advocated several times now in this forum, for exactly the reasons TT mentioned, and I have no idea why people continue to express disdain for it.

raising this flop reeks of two things:

1) im afraid to ever lose a pot so i gotta make everyone fold
2) raise "to find out where I'm at" syndrome

these two things should be unlearned imo