QJ, QT values

[Riku]

Im trying to take off my training wheels, but im having trouble in figuring out the values of QJs and QTs hands preflop.

Lets say im mp2 and one loose player limps in on mp1. There are people with 25 vpips behind me. Im not sure if i should raise to isolate and get heads up, or try to get some limpers behind me.

Am i correct if i state that QJs QTs hands play better multiway than they would heads up ? Thus if the guys behind me were pretty loose, i would just call to encourage multiway pot.

If i had KTs, K9s i would probaby raise to death, but didn´t exactly mind callers (at least with KTs).

[DrModern]

I rue hands like QT, s00ted or not, but I think that at a table with many people willing to cold-call raises, I don't have a problem with raising QTs or QJs from MP2. But at a tighter table, I am much more likely to limp. I'm mostly hoping to flop a flush or straight draw, thought top pair occasionally has some value as well (beware of possible kicker troubles in these situations, though).

[Genz]

I would mostly fold QTs in this position. And I would tend to limp with QJs. If you have cold-callers behind you, you will almost always be in a very nasty spot postflop. Both of these hands are so easily dominated. And when you have a two pair, there is always someone drawing at a straight. All this kind of stuff. They are difficult to play, often. So I wouldn't try to isolate unless the players behind me are very tight. A fold preflop often isn't a mistake with these hands.

[DrModern]

[ QUOTE ]
I would mostly fold QTs in this position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why's that?

[henkeee]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that at a table with many people willing to cold-call raises, I don't have a problem with raising QTs or QJs from MP2. But at a tighter table, I am much more likely to limp.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would tend to do the opposite. Raise and isolate the loose player at a tight table (where people actually fold) and call in a loose game and evalutate at the flop. At a tight table you can take the pot down unimproved, so a raise has more value.

Generally I fold QTs in this spot and QJs I play differently from time to time. I don't think I play QJs optimally, but it's a good stealing hand (you can represent and get away from an A/K and if you hit you are in fairly good condition).

[DrModern]

Why would you want to isolate with a hand that has little showdown value in its own right? See the thread about isolation raises. Your favorite kind of flop with QTs and QJs is one that gives you a flush or straight draw. When I advocated raising with these at tables with lots of cold callers, it's because you're looking to win a large pot with a flush or straight (though, as I said, sometimes TP is enough).

[henkeee]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to isolate with a hand that has little showdown value in its own right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it all depends on the villain. If he's loose, not to aggressive and don't see "every" showdown then QJs doesn't look too bad. But it's not a hand I would try to isolate with here. My response was not so clear, but QJs is a good hand to open raise quite early though.

[ QUOTE ]
See the thread about isolation raises. Your favorite kind of flop with QTs and QJs is one that gives you a flush or straight draw. When I advocated raising with these at tables with lots of cold callers, it's because you're looking to win a large pot with a flush or straight (though, as I said, sometimes TP is enough).

[/ QUOTE ]

In my response I was mostly talking in general about what table conditions I prefer when to raise or call after a single loose player. I didn't say QJs is the best hand to try to isolate with. I don't expect it to be a large mulitway pot at the tables I play at if I raise in this spot. I rather raise it in position after several limpers.

If I raise and get one cold caller or a loose blind to call, then I'm not so happy. If I raise at a tight table and get's it HU with a bad player instead of letting BB see the flop for free, then I'm happier.

[drzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to isolate with a hand that has little showdown value in its own right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the vogue here. We are just so much better than the fish that our cards magically become unbeatable if we isolate them. Really.

Ed Miller did not say take the training wheels off by becoming a LAG. *Sometimes* there is more value in pushing edges but sometimes those edges are illusory. Even our loose opponents do not have random cards.

Anyway, the extra value of suitedness/connectedness is pretty much lost if you are playing heads up. You've shut out all the players who would pay off your flush/straight. So all you have basically is QJ/QT. That's a bit like charging into a battle in just your underwear.

[kerowo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to isolate with a hand that has little showdown value in its own right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the vogue here. We are just so much better than the fish that our cards magically become unbeatable if we isolate them. Really.

Ed Miller did not say take the training wheels off by becoming a LAG. *Sometimes* there is more value in pushing edges but sometimes those edges are illusory. Even our loose opponents do not have random cards.

Anyway, the extra value of suitedness/connectedness is pretty much lost if you are playing heads up. You've shut out all the players who would pay off your flush/straight. So all you have basically is QJ/QT. That's a bit like charging into a battle in just your underwear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except in certain situations you are charging into battle against a paper target. 70%+ vpip players are playing a wide assortment of cards, the vast majority of which are dominated by any two face cards. If you can isolate them with such a hand you can extract value from them you wouldn't get from a tighter player. It requires reads on those in front of you and those left to act though, if you have loose calling stations behind you the isolation raise isn't such a great play. If it is vpip 12s behind you it becomes easier to do. Although most of those guy's probably know your fish too and will 3-bet you to isolate YOU.

Yes, sometimes fish have cards, but you don't make money betting that way.