folding to opponents sudden massive river bet

nancyloum1 · #1 09-13-2007, 11:06 PM

I could not figure out what this guy was doing, so I folded, given the number of straight and flush options on board. I felt I misplayed this whole hand. Any advice?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t2325)
SB (t3095)
BB (t1375)
UTG (t1730)
MP1 (t805)
Hero (t3660)
CO (t1085)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t300, 2 folds, SB raises to t500, 1 fold, Hero calls t200.

Flop: (t1100) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t1300) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t1700) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t2295 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: t-595

chrismystero · #2 09-13-2007, 11:10 PM

preflop is fine. raise the flop. a lot. he has just bet less than 10% of the pot, so I'd wanna make it at least 800 to see where I'm at.

4CardStraight · #3 09-13-2007, 11:14 PM

I fold preflop, but Im a nit.

postoakpoker · #4 09-14-2007, 12:55 AM

The pf min-raise usually indicates a very strong hand (usually aces or kings), since its almost guaranteed to get called by the original raiser with atc (at least when the blinds [and therefore raises] are small compared to the stacks [which is not the case here]). With that said, it can also mean other things, especially if it's a donkament.

Let's go on the assumption that he has aces or AK (since there's only one way to make kings). Looking through the hand, the play is consistant (poorly played) with aces or AK. He min-raised preflop to get more money into the pot and lure you in. On the flop and turn he's possibly making little suck bets. For some reason, on the river, he massively overbets the pot. While at first this may not make sense, you have to understand the thought process of a lower-stakes player holding aces or AK in this spot. So many times I see these massive overbets with hands that are strong pf, but do not coordinate well with the board. It's a bet that says "hey buddy, if you can beat this, good luck to ya." It's an awful play, since you'll mostly only get called by hands that beat you. Don't get "married" to a hand prematurely.

It's definitely a murky situation, especially against an unknown. As chris said previously, you have to raise to find out where you're at. There are plenty of other possibilities (blocking bet on the flop w/ a flush draw, or a blocking bet on the flop & turn w/ a straight draw, or maybe even KQ), and just calling is the worst way to help define his hand.

levAA · #5 09-14-2007, 05:17 AM

fold preflop both times

raise flop to see where you stand - if you can't chase him off don't invest anymore chips.

Thegunshow · #6 09-14-2007, 10:40 AM

Fold preflop. Twice.

Slick_Weatherman · #7 09-14-2007, 03:37 PM

just wanted some thought process on the folding preflop.. granted KJ is kind of a cheese hand, but IMO if he was going to play it, he should raise (which he did), and regardless of the cards the re raiser holds, KJ is getting insane odds to call in position and hit a good flop.

the decision to play KJ here, would it be influenced in either direction if you are shorter stacked or deeper stacked than where the original poster is?

levAA · #8 09-14-2007, 05:06 PM

KJ is one of the dangerous hands, which you can easily loose your hole stack with.

player has a very health M, so there is no real pressure to steal the blinds. another problem here are CO and BB who are relatively short and might consider a resteal.

KJ is a hand where you can try to see a cheap flop in an unraised pot and hope to flop a monster, or can win with a pair of kings or jacks.

anyway, if you play this hand in an raised pot or face a reraise like here the value of the hand drops down, cause it is very likely to be dominated.

what will you do on a flop like KT2 or QJ5.

so you need to flop 2 pairs, a set or a straight to continue playing it - the chances therefor are about 4% so 1:24 and there is simply not enough chips in the game to make it worth playing that.

Marduk · #9 09-14-2007, 05:47 PM

opening kj in the hijack 7-handed is totally fine and you're getting 4.5-1 immediate odds to call the 2nd time around. assuming you can get his whole stack in there, you can play this hand strictly for 2 pair/trips value. given that he min-3bet pf, he'll probably stack off with much worse than that anyways.

erc007 · #10 09-14-2007, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I could not figure out what this guy was doing, so I folded, given the number of straight and flush options on board. I felt I misplayed this whole hand. Any advice?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button (t2325)
SB (t3095)
BB (t1375)
UTG (t1730)
MP1 (t805)
Hero (t3660)
CO (t1085)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises to t300, 2 folds, SB raises to t500, 1 fold, Hero calls t200.

Flop: (t1100) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t1300) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200.

River: (t1700) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets t2295 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: t-595

[/ QUOTE ]

As weak as it sounds...i fold this preflop when he makes it 500. I would call this with any PP or SC, but calling with KJ is tough, b/c you'll never know where you're at at any point in the hand. IMO SB could have a really wide range here. I've seen this kind of raise with AA;KK a lot, but i've also seen it with hands like AQs and ATs too. River is an easy fold since his range is wide and your TP is only a bluff catcher now.