Open shoving 15-20 BB's

[Bond18]

I've seen a lot more open shoving of 15-20 BB's lately from good winning players. And not just in obvious spots, such as near the bubble or when everyone behind you would be an easy all in call anyway.

I've seen it coming from like MP1 with 17 BB's in spots with a whole range of stacks behind and nowhere near the bubble or well into the money.

My questions in general are:
What kind of situations would you consider open shoving 15-20 BB's that aren't totally obvious?
What kind of hands would you be doing it with?
Which tournaments are you most likely to do it in? Higher buy in or lower and why?
Overall thoughts?

[Fiksdal]

I was opening a discussion a couple of days ago about this.
Link.

Generally it would be if you're gonna raise with a decent hand and aren't folding to a push, but you would still like to maximize fold equity.

[betgo]

I think it is pretty bad from early position unless you are overmatched. Atleast I usually feel I can get more EV from other plays than overbet pushing from early position.

Say I have 17xBB in CO with a small ante and one of the players behind me has 8xBB, another has 12xBB and the other two have me covered. Then I might open push 22-88, AJ-AQ, KQ or something like that. Pushing any of those hands is clearly cEV+. As others have said, you would might raise 2.5xBB with big hands and steal hands, and push the medium ones.

[registrar]

15bbs. You raise 2.5BB+ in EP and get floated by a larger stack. You're OOP without much room to play a flop and the blinds will take you down to around 11BBs if you don't win this pot. I hate that situation and so I'll open push if I think there's is reasonable chance that I'll get called rather than restolen by a bigger stack.

[Soulman]

[ QUOTE ]
15bbs. You raise 2.5BB+ in EP and get floated by a larger stack. You're OOP without much room to play a flop and the blinds will take you down to around 11BBs if you don't win this pot. I hate that situation and so I'll open push if I think there's is reasonable chance that I'll get called rather than restolen by a bigger stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
So you're always willing to lose it all if you play a hand with 15 BBs? How about 17 BBs? Where do you draw the line?

Edit: Also, I assume you play pretty tight from EP then - no open shoving AJ I suppose, AQ, TT+ or so being the bare minimum?

[registrar]

I don't really have any lines - it really depends on who's behind. Last night, I opened 89s MP1 with ~18bbs (which is probably a mistake, but most people at the table would have given me credit for a hand) and the incredibly loose monster stack called OTB and then shoved a rag flop in my face when I checked it. From then on, anything I opened, I shoved until I doubled. Looking back, I like the idea of open shoving 89s but then I just really like that hand.

[Soulman]

I can't see that open shoving 89s from MP1 with 18 BBs is any good under most circumstances.

I would probably be tighter from MP1 than 89s, especially when there's a loose monster stack that (I'm guessing, but it's pretty classic) loves to float on the button. That's me though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[NoahSD]

In lower buy-ins, I used to do this with big hand right after I doubled up after pushbotting a lot. I thought it would look less weird than raising less than AI.

I sometimes do it when I've managed to pick up a maniacal image.

I also do it when it folds to me in the SB and I think BB's restealing range is perfect against my hand.

[betgo]

Pushing 98s for 18xBB from MP1 is pretty bad. If you don't like raising, you could try limping or folding in that situation.

[registrar]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing 98s for 18xBB from MP1 is pretty bad. If you don't like raising, you could try limping or folding in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't bring myself to fold but I should think about limping more often, that's true. It just never occurs to me with less than 20bbs.