JTo otb in straddled hand, 5 limps (coldcallers)

[shuinthehouse]

X-post from SSHE where this has gotten some good feedback and some disagreement from experienced posters:

I don't play much live, so limited experience how to adjust play when there is a straddle, never seen one at 2-4 and I was playing 4-8 after winning at 2-4.
Question 1: Generally, do you play your hand as if the pot is raised, or just like it's just double stakes, like a kill pot. Obviously you adjust for the fact there is more likely to be gamboooling than usual.

Live Foxwoods 4-8. BB and UTG both relatively new, but both have straddled the last few orbits, and are raising very light. Prior to this no one had straddled in the few hours I had been playing. UTG straddles, 5 calls, mostly loose passives, but one solid TAG in MP3. I have JTo otb.

Question 2: I call right? If UTG had raised and 5 cold-called I would fold this, but with 6 limpers I would call, I think that's what I have to consider this situation, right?

I call, SB folds, BB 3 bets.

Question 3: In hindsight I should have thought about the fact there was about a 90% chance that was going to happen when determining if I should call. If I had, would it have changed my decison?

UTG straddler caps, all call to me.

Question 4: I have to call getting 8-1 otb in a capped pot, right?

I call, Flop comes 9xx rainbow. BB bets, all call. I have only backdoor straight draw, 1.5 outs, maybe discount to one. But I'm getting ~39-1 so

Question 5: I have to call, right?

Turn brings 9xxQ, 2 diamonds. BB bets, all call, I call getting a million to one with 6 clean str8 outs. River is a Q, there's a bet and 4 callers, one of the loose passives in HJ or MP3 wins with pocket J's.

[Fantam]

Am I correct in thinking that a straddle is an unforced bet, which a player has voluntarily decided to make before being dealt his cards ? (i.e. I am here to Gambool !)

In which case, I would have folded preflop with the 2 straddlers at the table likely to make it expensive to see the flop.

I call the flop. The pots obviously big, and I would not completely discount your overcard outs to accompany your bdsd.

The turn is a pretty straightforward call. Unfortunately the river does not complete your draw and is a fold with no hand despite the huge pot.

Nice opponents to have at your table though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Aaron W.]

I'd insta-call without the straddle, so the question is whether the increased blindsize is good or bad for your hand. Think about it and tell me what you think.

[jeanbaptiste36]

The straddle hurts your implied odds and JTo is not much of a toppair hand, so I say a fold.
Your hand is not much better than theirs but they are cutting your odds in half which is important when you have to draw to something with JTo. I have no math backup my claim but JTo is marginal in this spot without cold-calling to begin with, isn't it?

[Befolder]

I just came from the live games this weekend as well and this is an easy call for me whether raised UTG or straddled. We have great relative position to the raiser. I wish it were suited, but against the players at these tables, value extraction is quite easy.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I just came from the live games this weekend as well and this is an easy call for me whether raised UTG or straddled. We have great relative position to the raiser. I wish it were suited, but against the players at these tables, value extraction is quite easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I would call an UTG raise with JTo.

[Befolder]

Having the UTG be a raiser might be a better situation than a straddle, due to the opportunity to trap the field for many bets on the flop when we hit very well. We can't count on a straddler to come out betting, but a raiser often will.

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
The straddle hurts your implied odds and JTo is not much of a toppair hand, so I say a fold.
Your hand is not much better than theirs but they are cutting your odds in half which is important when you have to draw to something with JTo. I have no math backup my claim but JTo is marginal in this spot without cold-calling to begin with, isn't it?

[/ QUOTE ]

How does the straddle hurt him implied odds? I know what you are thinking, but it is basically wrong. A straddled hand is any two cards (I know you are going to argue about the strength of his hand), but a straddler typically "defends" his straddle as much as possible (unless his name is Buzz!). This means that several times it will be 3bet/capped by the straddler if not done before it gets back to him. if 3bet/capped by BTN, SB, or BB, your implieds are still huge (normal scenario for large implied odds). If 3bet/capped by the straddler, your implieds are still huge however because...

1. Straddler will lead almost any flop since straddler = moron in most cases.
2. Others will be playing the straddler for what he is... again, a moron
3. Everyone else in the pot will either be calling down w/ all kinds of pairs.. TPWK, 2PGK, etc OR trying to push others out of the pot w/ random top pair type hands.
4. Reason 3 keeps implied odds large because people will become less willing to fold for 1-2 bets (rightfully so in this case) because the pot will be so large.

[tyler_cracker]

eric,

mathematically speaking, the straddle hurts our implied odds because we are getting 10:2 instead of 5:1 (or whatever), effectively doubling the number of bets we need to make up postflop to compensate for what is (maybe) a -EV call. the situation gets worse if we know the straddler will always 3bet (a la shadow). the fact that the straddler holds ATC has nothing to do with the numbers -- we still have to pay the extra money to see the flop.

as far as tactics and the play of this hand, i think your arguments are pretty good. much depends on how the other players react to straddles, however. some tables loosen up, fling chips and yell "cappuccino!" in a straddled pot; other tables tighten up like a virgin at the homecoming dance.

regardless, i'm definitely playing JT here with position against a straddle. often, i'm playing it against a utg raiser as well. in both cases, i am looking to flop something quite good (TP is not very exciting in this big, multiway pot).

[bravos1]

[ QUOTE ]
eric,

mathematically speaking, the straddle hurts our implied odds because we are getting 10:2 instead of 5:1 (or whatever), effectively doubling the number of bets we need to make up postflop to compensate for what is (maybe) a -EV call. the situation gets worse if we know the straddler will always 3bet (a la shadow). the fact that the straddler holds ATC has nothing to do with the numbers -- we still have to pay the extra money to see the flop.

as far as tactics and the play of this hand, i think your arguments are pretty good. much depends on how the other players react to straddles, however. some tables loosen up, fling chips and yell "cappuccino!" in a straddled pot; other tables tighten up like a virgin at the homecoming dance.

regardless, i'm definitely playing JT here with position against a straddle. often, i'm playing it against a utg raiser as well. in both cases, i am looking to flop something quite good (TP is not very exciting in this big, multiway pot).

[/ QUOTE ]

Tyler,

Yes, I actually had that in my post (or thought I did..some how I deleted a whole 2-3 sentences).

My point is that, while we do need to make up a large amount of bets, the straddler, plus the whole slew of others and how they tend to react to straddlers typically makes it easy to make these bets up.

My point was.. just saying "the straddle hurts your implied odds" is bad. This is why I started my post with "how does the straddle hurt...". People need to think more about certain situations than just what the numbers are presenting. Without using any "poker intuition", you are not going to play optimally, and actually will not even be able to closely guesstimate what your implied odds really look like.

Also, my part about the straddler holding ATC was in reference to people stating that it will be harder to get money out of the straddler because he does not typically have a premium hand in which we can extract the most amount of money from. This is not necessarily true in this case.