When 3-betting, is there ever a time to NOT fire on the flop?

[SirFelixCat]

The two hands in particular that got me thinking about this are here:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP ($58.70)
CO ($49.25)
Button ($52.50)
Hero ($129.10)
BB ($50)
UTG ($54.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2.5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls $2.50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $9</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $6.50, Button folds.

Flop: ($21) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>


Hero ?


And:

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.10/$0.25 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $20.40
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $40.75</font>
UTG: $55.50
MP: $22.65
CO: $30.40
BTN: $26.65

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">MP raises to $0.85</font>, 3 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.20</font>, MP calls $2.35

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($6.50) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $4.05</font>, MP folds
Uncalled bet of $4.05 returned to Hero

[/ QUOTE ]


Now, if you're 3betting with JJ oop and the flop comes AKQ, ok fine. But under most 'normal' circumstances, is there ever a time that you/we/I 3-bet and should not fire on the flop? I have to be honest...I never have NOT fired...

Learn me fellas....

[Doug Funnie II]

Against an unknown, I think its rare. Maybe if opponent is aggro enough and your hand is pretty impervious then it could be worth it. However there have been lots of times for me when I've 3 bet AA, got 4 bet, and just called then checked flop.

In the first hand you posted I'm betting 13-17 to try to take QQ+ to value town. 2nd hand I play the same.

Hard to say when not to CB on a flop. I guess it has a lot to do with the image that we have at the table. If a check looks like weakness to villain and induces him to bet it`s better to checkraise IMO. If a check by us looks as scary as a bet, then I think we should come out betting as usual.

[SirFelixCat]

The first hand wasn't mine and I agree with you. But when you start talking 4-betting and calling, at these limits, I'm sorry, but imo you're turning your hand face up, no?

And that's why I'm asking this. I feel like I'm repping a big PP or at least AK when I 3bet (granted my range can be quite bigger depending on villain, position, image etc), so when the flop comes down, such as in hand #2, I feel like I'm making it obvious that I have a big hand, even more so if I were to check.

I really think there can be some good conversation about this, since, as 2+2'ers, we're 3-betting a whole helluva lot more than avg. monkey out there. So, what say you uNL?!?

[Doug Funnie II]

I don't think uNL is 3 betting without the goods very much. There's lots about this in MSNL though.

[TheRenaissance]

There are plenty of situations you can/should check flop in a 3b pot.

Some decent posters think this is a standard spot not to cbet, and no really good arguments for betting comes up (except maybe "to mix it up").
link to thread
The hand:

Villain is unknown.
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds
6 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter

SB: $48
BB: $48.75
UTG: $49
<font color="black">Unknown (MP): $45.85</font>
<font color="black">Ren (CO): $53.95</font>
BTN: $48.65

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Ren is dealt K K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 Players)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1.75</font>, Unknown calls $1.75, <font color="red">Ren raises to $7.75</font>, 4 folds, Unknown calls $6

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($18) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Unknown checks, Ren checks

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($18) 4 (2 Players)
<font color="red">Unknown bets $10</font>, Ren calls $10

<font color="black">River:</font> ($38) 2 (2 Players)
<font color="red">Unknown bets $15</font>, Ren folds
Uncalled bet of $15 returned to Unknown

Pot Size: $38 ($1.90 Rake)

[SirFelixCat]

Fair enough, Ren. I suppose that this is more the exception than the rule. I should have posted a hand similar to this to account for the ONE time that I wouldn't. Are there really any other spots though that any of you can think of?

[Vyse]

There are many times. If I'm 3betting kind of light and I know the villain well and it is highly probable the flop hit him, I am not. If I am 3betting with KK/AA and I hit a set, or the flop is not scary at all, I will check behind or try to C/R if I'm OOP.

[.xxxx.]

Ren's hand is so limited in the scope of b3b discussions, the main time you question whether or not to bet out on a 3 bet pf is when unders/flush/straight draw pops down and you're wondering whether to continue. In all situation I argue to continue playing aggressively because at uNL you've limited villain's range to TT+,AQ+ and AK/AQ are going to take a free card everytime if they're in position. The only time to consider checking the flop is if you're in position and believe villain will fire out at a blank on the turn hoping to fold your AQ/AK, and then you can decide to get creative to get his stack in (donk minraise for value, etc..). In all other situations where an A flops and villain fires out, he's got the A unless he's a complete maniac like me.

[PoppaTMan]

OOP, I will check a lot of Ace high and King high flops regardless if I hit or not. In position though, I'm likely going to fire on every flop.