JJ --> Big Pot

Veron · #1 04-04-2007, 07:11 PM

I'm new at the table and played about 1 or 2 orbits when this hand came up...

I didn't play against the villains before, so they're basically unknown, except for this;

MP open limped in the CO and cold-called a BTN opener in the SB. He's clearly loose and bad, but I have no idea about his postflop game.

CO made 1 aggressive play so far, and doesn't seem like a total donkey... but once again, he is basically unknown.

5/10$ 5handed

Hero is SB w/ J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: MP limps, CO raises , fold, Hero 3bets ,fold, MP calls, CO CAPS , we call

Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 13SB)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO Bets, Hero Raises , MP cold-calls, CO calls

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 9.5BB)
Hero Bets, MP Raises , CO cold-calls, Hero??

mvoss · #2 04-04-2007, 07:37 PM

Honestly I think you're screwed here like every single time. I still end up calling down though.

jstill · #3 04-04-2007, 10:20 PM

I always call down and think its right but i guess ive never thought about it that much.

So the parlay is we have Co beat with our JJ and MP is raising a worse hand on the turn.

Its usually gonna cost us 2 bb to win 16 or 17. those are decent odds.

I think theres a good chance we have MP beat. he open limped UTG then didnt cap after the 3bet (probably not better than QQ+) so if hes got us its probably 99 (who open limps that? I guess this guy) or 22 (which if limped probably always calls 2 back cold). Whereas it could be tons of A9 maybe 98 type hands trying to freeshowdown or maybe move the capper off the best hand. Ur probably ahead of him like 10:1 combo wise and could discount that (since he wont always try to free showdown those hands but will always put in a raise sooner or later with a boat or quads flopped) to 2:1 anyways (sometimes he ll have AA here too or even KK based on description .

Now the tougher part is beating the capper who calls two cold on the turn probably ruling out AK AQo maybe even TT JJ type hands. Maybe this is a fold but I cant make it.

Im curious when people would not calldown here (if thats their response or what better hand would they start calling down with if they fold here). TT? 88? when would u 3bet?AA how about 55 ?

jba · #4 04-04-2007, 10:27 PM

jstill if I 3bet I have 99/55 every time.

jstill · #5 04-04-2007, 11:03 PM

well i was just kinda thinking whats the difference if u ll 3 bet 55 why not AA should we 3bet AA too than maybe or not 55 perhaps?

when I thought about it, particularly with the overlay of CO in there (and actually i meant to include his not 3betting the flop kinda discounts hands like AA and often even KK or QQ (debatable who wouldnt 3bet the flop with QQ in COs shoes?) AA seems perfectly reasonable to 3bet. But where do we cross the line. Do we think we are way behind MPs range? What do we estimate? will he often call the flop with TT JJ or even A9 two cold and raise it on the turn and calldown (this matters to what we should 3bet or calldown with or fold rite?) and both seem quite possible.

If we think MPs range is so much 99 or 22 that we shouldnt 3bet AA shouldnt we not 3bet 55 (he probably doesnt call 2 cold with 55 off the flop so in either instance were only behind to 4 combos vs all his range and possibly getting 2:1 on our 3bet with CO not folding his overpair often and the chance MP will calldown from a 3bet with something like A9 or TT+.

thepizzlefosho · #6 04-05-2007, 02:05 AM

I think I might be able to find a fold on the river if MP bets and CO calls, but I don't know if I should.

I feel like we are pretty much never ahead unless these guys are spewing, and I guess I assume that unknowns are at least slightly rational after the flop until proven otherwise.

Veron · #7 04-05-2007, 01:02 PM

I allways end up calling down in spots like these too.
I won't give the results away just yet because I'd like to hear some more opinions on the hand. Also maybe somebody doesn't agree with my river line?

5/10$ 5handed

Hero is SB w/ J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Preflop: MP limps, CO raises , fold, Hero 3bets ,fold, MP calls, CO CAPS , we call

Flop: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 13SB)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO Bets, Hero Raises , MP cold-calls, CO calls

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 9.5BB)
Hero Bets, MP Raises , CO cold-calls, Hero calls

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (15.5BB 3 players)
Hero checks, MP Bets, CO folds, Hero CALLS

I wouldn't have overcalled on the river...

thepizzlefosho · #8 04-05-2007, 01:06 PM

I think its fine. You probably aren't winning, but you only have to catch the guy getting r-tarded with a 9 or something worse 1 in 16 times to show a profit. At 5/10 I think people are more likely to make lagtarded turn moves and the call is definitely in order.

thorleif · #9 04-05-2007, 01:12 PM

Gross.

Call the turn and I think we have to call the river hatefully for 1 more unless opp's do something stupid.

thorleif · #10 04-05-2007, 01:16 PM

Sorry guys, doin the whole 'post before reading responses' to try to improve my thinking.

I think your river call is in order getting the price you are.