Early all-ins in multitable no limit holdems

[Don Spanton]

Hi everyone. I have been a casual (but competitive) chess player my entire life and was recently introduced to online poker by a friend. My attraction to the game was immediate. First I started off with play money to learn te basics, but then I got fed up with how unrealistic it was so I switched over to micro real money. My philosophy is to gradually work my way up the ladder, only advancing to a higher skill level when I have demonstrated that I can consistently win at my present level. What else...As a chess player I'm a big fan of Dan Harrington and his analytical style and generally I prefer tournaments to cash tables.

Currently, I am playing the $1.00 45 mans over at poker stars and have been finishing in the money consistently over the past two weeks. My question is concerning all-in situations early in an online tourney.

An example:

A few hands into a 45 man tourney (chip stacks all are in relative parity) I'm in middle position with pocket kings preflop. I bet $150 (5x the big blinds) and get two callers - both acting after me. The flop comes and its all low cards (2,5,6). There's no flush draw on the board and only remote strt possibilities. I bet $350 (about 3/4 the pot). The first guy folds, but the second guy goes all in for about $1200.

Some additional things of note:

1. Even in the few hands already played, this guy has been in everyhand and won one with a overbet/push out and the other with high pair/low kicker. So already my read is that he's a loose, weak player.

2. A loose player like this might have called with a low pocket pair and hit his set on the flop. He could be trying to trap me. Likewise, he could have called with complete trash and hit two pair. (Sometimes its really hard to figure out the hole cards of these loose crazy types.)

But both of these scenarios seem unikely and I don't think it is reasonable to allow myself to get pushed off of a very strong hand by an all-in that is probably at best a semi-bluff.

So I call. He shows 6-7 suited (top pair with a weak kicker) and sucks out, catching a 6 on the turn.

Now, I feel that my read was good, but these kinds of bad beats happen on all-ins preflop or on the flop constantly.

What is the weakest hand you would call an all-in on preflop and at the flop during the early stages of a tourney. Should the possibility of taking a bad beat and getting eliminated very early on in any way affect my decision making process?

Thanks for any advice.

Don [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Don Spanton]

Wow, I've just been browsing around and saw how detailed the descriptions can be...sorry if my elaboration was inadequate. I can clarify if necessary.

[Pov]

I'm by no means a tournament expert so hopefully you'll receive some additional advice from others, but I'll try to get the ball rolling for you.

As I'm sure you've noticed, the early going in a $1 tournament features a lot of very poor/crazy players. Given that information and your observation #1 - particularly the top pair, low kicker part - I think you have a clear call in this situation because you stand to hold a big advantage and gain significantly in the long run in this spot.

Notice that sometimes, like this time, you will be sucked out on and sometimes your opponent will have gotten lucky and you'll actually be behind. But notice the fantastic pot odds you're getting. Even if you're wrong a significant portion of the time, you'll probably still come out ahead because you're only being asked to call an additional T850 to win T2000 for well over 2:1. Against a likely maniac those are sweet odds with a big overpair.

Against a tougher player, calling 10% of their stack in position and then raising a low flop is more complicated because it is either a hand like TT trying to fold you before an Ace hits or a 66 hoping you can't let go of an overpair getting over 2:1. I wouldn't expect this to happen too often against a tougher player though because they aren't likely to call with a hand as low as 66 for 10% of their stack and they aren't likely to raise this flop with a medium overpair, preferring to call in position and see if you bet the turn with a bigger pair or check with a hand like AK.

Now to get to your general question on what kind of risks you should be willing to take early in a tournament. The general rule you should follow is to avoid very close situations early while the blinds are small in comparison to your stack if you feel like you have an edge over your opponents. This is both because a) you still have plenty of hands to find a better place to use your edge and because b) the value of doubling your chips is less than the penalty of being busted out of the tournament since you have a better than average chance of cashing if you just fold and play your normal game. Notice that as your edge decreases (or goes negative) that you should be more and more willing to gamble if you think you have any edge here because you don't expect to win on average anyway so busting out doesn't cost you much, but doubling up gives you a much better chance to make it to the money.

In your specific case though, we're not talking about a close situation so you would call either way. Even the best players can't afford to forego hands in which they are a significant favorite and especially not in quickly advancing structures like those featured in nearly all online tournaments.

[PantsOnFire]

The reality is most people who play these $1 tourneys treat it like a crapshoot. If you treat it like poker, you may get frustrated. You will have to accept that your variance will be high. A lot of times you will get knocked out like you did and a lot of times you will double or triple up and be in really good shape.

I have noted that these maniacs like straights and flushes the most so they play suited and connected cards like they are KK. And they'll play these hands for big preflop raises.

They make lots of mistakes but are hard to read so when I play in these tourneys, I fold the best hand sometimes, especially in multiway pots with coordinated boards. You'll eventually hit your own straight or flush or set and bust somebody. On uncoordinated boards I bet my TPTK for value and hope to string along a TPWK player.

And don't be afraid to move all-in yourself if you have a big hand and the pot is any decent size. You want a bozo with a straight or flush draw to call you and they will. You have a set and TP will call you. This isn't how you would play in a good game but it works in these games.

[DeuceSeven]

Preflop in general, I'll go broke with QQ+. Postflop I'll go broke with top pair with second kicker against 2 players on almost any board. I have yet to find a good player at these. The blinds go up so fast it's nice to have chips, because when you get shortstacked you have little fold equity, so you better get lucky or get some hands when you get short.

Usually what happens is either I get some cards and I'm in the top 5 after the first hour, or I'm short stacked and have to open push and hope my AQo survives some idiot calling off 3/4ths his stack with 22-44, A-rag, K-rag, or Q-rag.

EDIT: This is obviously for $1 tournies [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[riverruss]

His call of your pf raise was a bit loose but,I dont mind his push on the flop if he puts you on a big Ace.
Pretty standard at this level,just forget it & fire up another.

[Easy17]

dont look at the result, look at the actions - you played it fine based on your read, you made the correct read and got the chips in while way ahead. Over time you will win doing this.

You will also catch your share of suckouts, although you may not remember them as much as the ones that go against you.

As far as taking big gambles early in a MTT, that is a good question - see MTT forums for more. I prefer taking the gamble depending on conditions.

[Yads]

You got your money in as a favorite. Tournaments in general have huge variance especially small buy in crap shoot tourneys. Learn to deal with it if you're planning on playing tourneys as your primary game.

[Lawman]

Based on your read you played it well. More often than not though, this situation arises without any read at all - in which case I tend to fold (not everyone playing at this level is a mug). Since at this level many players will call all-ins with virtually anything I often overbet big hands early on. Similarly, I often raise all in preflop with AA - it's surprising how often you'll get called.

Although folding KK on a low board (with no read) may seem excessively cautious, the standard of play is on the whole so bad at these levels that there will be plenty of opportunity for a good player to accumulate chips without risking your tournament life.