10-20 limit on stars, should i become a limidonk? GRAPHS!!

[raptor517]

so, i havent really played limit in like, 2 years. probably more than 2 years. and when i did, it was 5-10 and i was absolutely awful. i was good HU just cuz i never folded and clicked raise a lot, so i did ok overall.. so yeah, i decided to 8 table some 10-20 on stars for a couple hours cuz i was bored. fwiw my normal game hovers around 25-50 NL, higher or lower depending on availability of games.

so yea, i wanna be not a complete fish cuz im playing about 35 events at the series this summer, including the lhe events, and i dont wanna be the donk at the table during the limit rounds. anyways, i know absolutely NOTHING about how to play 6max limit. im a complete fish. i have no idea what a good pfr is, what a good vpip is, how often im sposed to defend my blinds, etc. i played it pretty much like NL preflop which i think was awful, and it got me ownd. so, tell me how im a fish so i can be less of one.



24.29/20.35 is vpip/pfr. Total agression factor is 3.00. WTSD is 39.29, won$atSD is 45.93. i feel like i fold my blinds too much, and when i get 3 bet and call, i give up on too many flops when i completely air out, or i call and fold turn. anyways, help a NL donk out at this limit stuff. <3

[HOWMANY]

I have no idea why a good NL player would switch to limit, I'm pretty sure playing limit gives you cancer. Basically what you need to learn to do is not fold. I'm way too lazy to give a lot of good advice, but I guess you can start by always folding or 3betting preflop in position against open raises. Defend a lot of awful looking hands that you might think look unplayable in the bb against button/sb open. If you ever have top pair at any point in the hand you should probably show down. If you can beat TPTK on the flop you probably need to 3bet or cap depending on your position. Other people can probably give way better actual strategy advice and how to actually think.

Seriously though, I have no idea why you would punish yourself by playing LHE when you are good at NL. I'll probably look for you at tables now so please don't get good.

[rafiki]

Hmm, the size of the post that people would have to give here is pretty massive. Can you give a range of what you're currently folding when people steal ? Also what range of hands you're stealing with ?

As for play post flop, it still becomes very read specific. Want to post some hands ? Maybe post 3 hands you had trouble with in here. The first time I went up to 6max, I got destroyed. I wasn't nearly aggressive enough, and then figured out just how much people are willing to raise the turn with draws, or on a scare card.

As for someone suggesting a VPIP, I don't think that's required. Many players crush those games with a LAGish style. Other TAGs who know how to play well post flop also crush those games. Really depends on your style.

[raptor517]

stuff like this where i feel like turns are getting check raised airy, or at least semi light, i feel obligated to 3 bet with my draws. is this bad?

POKERSTARS GAME #9507253259: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/04/19 - 19:11:31 (ET)
Table 'Ganymede II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: IThrowCash ($645 in chips)
Seat 2: Bebop86 ($703 in chips)
Seat 3: OfcTenpenny ($375 in chips)
Seat 4: jkopp984 ($400.50 in chips)
Seat 5: masd argelie ($193 in chips)
Seat 6: COSIN ($310.50 in chips)
masd argelie: posts small blind $5
COSIN: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bebop86 [9h Th]
IThrowCash: folds
Bebop86: raises $10 to $20
OfcTenpenny: folds
jkopp984: folds
masd argelie: folds
COSIN: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [6s Jd Jh]
COSIN: checks
Bebop86: bets $10
COSIN: calls $10
*** TURN *** [6s Jd Jh] [4h]
COSIN: checks
Bebop86: bets $20
COSIN: raises $20 to $40
Bebop86: raises $20 to $60
COSIN: raises $20 to $80
Betting is capped
Bebop86: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [6s Jd Jh 4h] [Ts]
COSIN: bets $20
Bebop86: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
COSIN: shows [Js Qs] (three of a kind, Jacks)
Bebop86: mucks hand
COSIN collected $262 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $265 | Rake $3
Board [6s Jd Jh 4h Ts]
Seat 1: IThrowCash folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Bebop86 mucked [9h Th]
Seat 3: OfcTenpenny folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jkopp984 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: masd argelie (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: COSIN (big blind) showed [Js Qs] and won ($262) with three of a kind, Jacks

also, should i just fold river? i cant be ahead that often, but i mean, im getting what like 11 to 1 or something silly? i dno its just spots like that that im sure add up a ton, and im not really sure what to do. i feel like 3 betting the turn is a very strong play as he should be folding all but a jack or a good flush draw.. meh.



POKERSTARS GAME #9507958933: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/04/19 - 19:58:08 (ET)
Table 'Neufang' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: gaspoopy ($488 in chips)
Seat 2: Mittelerde ($229 in chips)
Seat 3: fix1 ($848 in chips)
Seat 4: Bebop86 ($626 in chips)
Seat 5: IThrowCash ($405 in chips)
Seat 6: cinbad66 ($1494.50 in chips)
IThrowCash: posts small blind $5
cinbad66: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bebop86 [Tc Jh]
gaspoopy: folds
Mittelerde: folds
fix1: calls $10
Bebop86: raises $10 to $20
IThrowCash: folds
cinbad66: calls $10
fix1: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [2d 5h Th]
cinbad66: checks
fix1: bets $10
Bebop86: raises $10 to $20
cinbad66: folds
fix1: calls $10
*** TURN *** [2d 5h Th] [5c]
fix1: checks
Bebop86: bets $20
fix1: raises $20 to $40
Bebop86: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [2d 5h Th 5c] [3s]
fix1: bets $20
Bebop86: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
fix1: shows [5d Ah] (three of a kind, Fives)
Bebop86: mucks hand
fix1 collected $222 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $225 | Rake $3
Board [2d 5h Th 5c 3s]
Seat 1: gaspoopy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Mittelerde folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: fix1 showed [5d Ah] and won ($222) with three of a kind, Fives
Seat 4: Bebop86 (button) mucked [Tc Jh]
Seat 5: IThrowCash (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: cinbad66 (big blind) folded on the Flop

spots like this, im not even sure if PF is correct with the cutoff limper.. am i sposed to fold the turn? theres a flush draw out i cant see getting away.. i dno there was just a ton of hands like that where im facing turn raises, and i felt pretty lost.


POKERSTARS GAME #9507721111: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($10/$20) - 2007/04/19 - 19:42:36 (ET)
Table 'Ganymede II' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: tharock3369 ($759 in chips)
Seat 2: Bebop86 ($311 in chips)
Seat 4: jkopp984 ($490 in chips)
Bebop86: posts small blind $5
jkopp984: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bebop86 [Kc As]
tharock3369: raises $10 to $20
Bebop86: raises $10 to $30
jkopp984: calls $20
tharock3369: calls $10
*** FLOP *** [Qs Jd 4d]
Bebop86: bets $10
jkopp984: raises $10 to $20
tharock3369: folds
Bebop86: calls $10
*** TURN *** [Qs Jd 4d] [Ac]
Bebop86: checks
jkopp984: bets $20
Bebop86: raises $20 to $40
jkopp984: calls $20
*** RIVER *** [Qs Jd 4d Ac] [Jh]
Bebop86: bets $20
jkopp984: raises $20 to $40
Bebop86: calls $20
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jkopp984: shows [Qh Js] (a full house, Jacks full of Queens)
Bebop86: mucks hand
jkopp984 collected $289 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $290 | Rake $1
Board [Qs Jd 4d Ac Jh]
Seat 1: tharock3369 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Bebop86 (small blind) mucked [Kc As]
Seat 4: jkopp984 (big blind) showed [Qh Js] and won ($289) with a full house, Jacks full of Queens

i guess this spot comes up fairly often, when you whiff AK. am i supposed to fold this river? i mean there isnt a whole lot he can have that i beat, theres actually probably nothing he can have that i beat, but i dno, i suck at folding. so tell me what i can do, i feel like a fish, haha.

[raptor517]

howmany,

heh, im not trying to switch to limit, i dont think you can make anywhere near as much playing limit as NL, at least i would never be able to. i dont have the patience to become great, i merely wish to become adequate. the main goal is to just be competitive and slightly +ev in most limit games i would play, including wsop events, which is why im trying to get a lil bit of limit down before the summer. ill prob play like 5k hands a week nothing huge, and then give it up alltogether until like a month before next summer.

[HOWMANY]

The second two hands are perfect. The first one you should pretty much always fold pf from that position. I open it always from CO and probably like half the time from hijack. Once you get to the turn I usually take the free card unless I know the guy is a chronic peeler and will have weird K/Q high hands he will now fold. I think 3betting the c/r is terrible, I honestly can't remember the last time I 3bet bluff/semibluff someone on a big bet street in LHE because it basically never works. If this guy is c/r a 4/6/whatever pair here then there's like no way he's folding it to a 3bet. Since I don't get to the river like that and I would have just checked turn or called c/r if I bet then I'd call the river easily, I would actually raise a ton of people if I checked turn. As played maybe they're retarted and have like 77-99. They won't but that's what I'll tell myself when I'm calling.

[raptor517]

HOWMANY,

haha ok, like.. as far as the 3 bet, i did that i think 4 different times in spots like that with either weird gutterballs on flush draw type things, and got folds 3 of the 4 times. i put this hand up cuz its the 1 time they didnt fold. i probably just ran good in those other 3 spots getting folds, so i tricked myself into thinking it was good. i guess ill just fold pf next time i thought it was pretty close, but i was playing like 20/17 and thought it was too tight so felt like opening up a bit. coo coo. good stuff.

[private joker]

Raptor -- play a little more straight forward in limit than NL, because good online players call down with A-high, convinced everyone is always on a draw. Be more aggro PF, like 3-betting in spots where you might flat-call in NL. And value bet the river, even with third pair, because getting checkraised doesn't risk your stack. Why? Same reason, because you'll get called by A-high.

Then read Stoxtrader's new book on beating shorthanded online limit games. It rules.

[DeathDonkey]

Raptor,

I think the first two hands are fine and the 3rd sucks. Your ace on the turn there is not a good enough card to checkraise, its just enough to get you to pay off because the board is terrifying. When you get raised on the river you can't beat anything and should fold but the play was check/call twice and the river call is crying at best. What were your fold SB and BB to steal stats and attempt to steal blinds?

-DeathDonkey

[Victor]

" won$atSD is 45.93"

this means you ran real poor. 2k hands isnt much.