Just starting...

SNG_ACE · #1 02-20-2006, 12:11 AM

Just starting out with this game doing play money until I learn. Almost thought I had a good hand for a sec cause im used to holdem...then I thought it through. Just checking to make sure im correct, JTTT is a folding hand pre in this game right?

icemanjmw · #2 02-20-2006, 12:23 AM

Yes. Trips are a quick fold (except maybe AAA2, AAA3, A222) which MAY be playable for one bet but I don't think so.

SNG_ACE · #3 02-20-2006, 12:46 AM

This game is tough. At these limits everyone is all-in every hand it seems. I can never get in one. Everyone seems to think 2pr and trips is the nuts. So its just who's crap is higher or who's crap is lower that wins. How do I combat this style of play? Just wait for AA23 and push all in?

Baxter · #4 02-20-2006, 08:13 AM

You'll get that type of play at any play money table (HE, Stud, Omaha, etc). It's a good way to learn to read your hand and start counting your outs. Play the game like you would a normal real money game. Once you get into micro limits, the play will only be slightly better than what you're doing now. It's not until you hit .5/1 that you can actually start to see players thinking about what they should do. Once you feel comfortable reading your hand and the board, move on.

SNG_ACE · #5 02-20-2006, 09:27 PM

Last and probably least... this is a good hand right:

[Kd Ad Ac 2c]

is this a hand im willing to risk all my chips with, or am i overvaluing it?

Buzz · #6 02-21-2006, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Last and probably least... this is a good hand right:

[Kd Ad Ac 2c]

[/ QUOTE ]Ace - It's a premium hand for limit Omaha-8, 99th percentile stuff. But it's not as good as AA is in Texas hold 'em.

[ QUOTE ]
is this a hand im willing to risk all my chips with, or am i overvaluing it?

[/ QUOTE ]You're not overvaluing the hand as much as you are viewing it from a sophomoric perspective.

The L.A. philharmonic arguably has the best musicians in my town, and if not the best, certainly a premium group of musicians. But when I was a young man, I never took a date to a performance given by the L.A. philharmonic.

Instead I matched the music to the woman. And that worked well.

Playing Omaha-8, you match the hand to the board. AA2Kd is a premium starting hand but it doesn't necessarily make a premium fit with the board, any more than the L.A. philharmonic would make a premium fit with the musical tastes of a woman.

Playing in a no-limit game, if an opponent with a bigger stack went all-in, I'd call with this hand and thus go all-in myself. But unless I had a small stack, I would probably not voluntarily go all-in before the flop with this hand (or any other hand). After the flop, depending, I might go all-in.

Buzz

SNG_ACE · #7 02-21-2006, 12:10 AM

i played one of those A222's just now, flopped the last 2 along with paired board with it, and ended up scooping the whole pot [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] hehe

SNG_ACE · #8 02-21-2006, 12:17 AM

How would you have played this hand? Softer? Much harder? If this is a stupid question, sry, as only my 2nd nl omaha 8/b sng ever.

Poker Stars
No Limit Omaha Tournament
Blinds: t15/t30
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t4130
UTG+1: t1770
MP1: t1585
CO: t1420
Button: t1615
SNG_ACE: t1360
BB: t1620

Pre-flop: (7 players) SNG_ACE is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 folds, CO calls t30, Button calls t30, SNG_ACE calls t15, BB checks.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t180, 6 players)
SNG_ACE bets t90, BB folds, UTG calls t90, UTG+1 calls t90, CO calls t90, Button folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (t540, 4 players)
SNG_ACE bets t120, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t120, CO calls t120.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t900, 3 players)
SNG_ACE checks, UTG+1 bets t30, CO calls t30, SNG_ACE raises to t90, 2 folds.
Uncalled bets: t60 returned to SNG_ACE.

Results:
Final pot: t990

MadTiger · #9 02-21-2006, 02:27 AM

As I read the previous post, I was thinking of the miracle flops that help you hold on to A222.

It seems you found it! SCOOOOOOOP!!!

Buzz · #10 02-21-2006, 02:44 AM

Ace - With no information regarding Hero's opponent's cards, Hero figures to be the favorite after this flop. Taken after the flop, with five opponents having also seen this flop, and assuming nobody would fold the nut flush draw, Hero will be up against a higher flush draw roughly only one time out of six. Also taken after the flop, and assuming nobody would fold a flopped set of kings, Hero will be up against a flopped set of kings roughly one time out of eleven. (That's all from a simulation).

So taken together, with five opponents seeing this flop, Hero is up against a higher flush draw or a set of kings roughly only one time out of four.
(0.0905+0.1673 = 0.2578 as a first approximation). And there are various other possibilities.

Hero turns out to be good for a win for high after this flop about 66%, and with only one low card on the flop will probably knock out the pure low draws with a bet.

Hero bets half the pot. (I wonder how you decided on that amount). At any rate, half the pot seems reasonable, I guess. I wouldn't much like being out of position, but oh well. And two opponents fold.

I'll simulate again after this turn, but I think I should keep the number of opponents the same as the number who saw the flop, assuming that anybody with a set of kings or the nut flush draw would have continued after the flop and would still be in the hand.

With the added information that no opponent can hold the seven of diamonds, and putting the seven of diamonds on the board, the probability of Hero being up against a nut flush decreases a bit, but the probability of an opponent having a set of kings increases a bit. Overall, as simulated, Hero figures to end up with a winning flush 6233, a winning full house 1585, and winning quads 227, a grand total of 8045 (and that's out of 10,000). Thus after this turn, Hero's chances of winning high go up from about 66% to about 80%.

If Hero makes a full house or quads on the river, there will be no low - but when Hero ends up with a winning flush, low will be possible 23/34 and not possible 11/34. At any rate, Hero is much favored to win high after this turn card, bets 120T and gets two calls.

I wonder how you decided on the 120T. You're out of position, so that betting at all is very scary. Anybody with the nut diamonds might either immediately raise you or will bet enough to hurt you on the river. Low will be possible 23/44 on the river, so that you will not be able to tell if the bet is coming from the nut flush (assuming the board does not pair) or the low. You started with 1360T and you will have committed 240T. Assuming the board does not pair on the river and you face an all-in bet, do you push in the rest of the 1120T remaining or fold?

If you push all in on the turn, instead of only 120T, you might knock out a set of kings and the lows and scoop the 540T already in the pot. If you wait, and if low becomes possible, you'll win half that. It'll be damned hard for you to bet more than another small bet on the river, and damned hard for you to call a raise that would put you all-in.

Wow! Being out of position without the nuts is really horrid, isn't it?

At any rate, you bet 120T and get two callers.

Then the river is the beautiful queen of clubs. Or is it beautiful? You still don't know if somebody behind you has the nut diamonds or not.

So you check and when UTG+1 makes a minimul bet, you raise four times that, still without knowing if UTG+1 or CO has the nut flush or not. Interesting.

I would have simply called UTG+1's bet on the river. Chances are you have UTG+1 beaten, but if not, you're going to get whacked here. And if you do have UTG+1 beaten, I don't see him doling out another 90T. And CO could possibly have the nut flush and be waiting for a check-raise from you. (I rather doubt that, but it doesn't seem impossible). I see the main threat to you as bing from UTG+1, who, with the nut flush, could be angling for a re-raise.

I wouldn't give him the chance. I think check-raising on the river with your hand is a nullo bet. (A nullo bet is a bet that risks whatever you bet when you lose but gains nothing when you win).

As it turns out, this time neither of your opponents has the nut flush - but I think about one time out of six an opponent might have the nut flush and might slow play it on the turn. (I don't think slow-playing the nut flush on the turn is the best course of action, but plenty of my opponents do).

Lastly, I'm not really up on how to best play no-limit Omaha-8. Someone with pot limit experience could better advise you than a limit player like me. (But the numbers I have provided are in the ball park, I think).

Buzz