PL5cd gap theory and other questions....

[kurto]

I've been playing 5cd for less then a week. Really enjoying it. I have some theory questions relating to the Gap Concept. I hope this isn't too many for one post...

(1) At the Pokerstars .25/.50PL tables, my experience thus far is that most of the players are not terribly aggressive. I have notes on many players who don't raise with any hand less then 2 pair.

Is it fair to say against such a player you shouldn't call with less then perhaps Kings or Aces up? (wait for a set?) I have been folded hands up to pocket aces against these players predraw and have felt good about it.

(2) Against aggressive players (raises any pair/flush/straight draw)- what is the minimum I should call with? (against these players I'm automatically reraising most 2 pairs and anything better) But I'm never sure how to act against these guys with naked aces particularly if they have position on me.

(3) I'm a little uncertain about the value of opening with naked pairs at tables with loose aggressives in the first 3 positions (sb, bb or UTG). Typical play-
I have a AAxyz UTG, pot raise it- 3-4 callers. I draw 2 or 3 cards (I vary it)... people after me draw anywhere from 1 to 3 cards. If I don't improve I can't call any bet. If I bet into the field they are calling with any 2 pair or better. Since I don't improve that often (and when I do a certain percentage of the time I'm beaten)... I'm a little confused as to the merits of raising AA in EP when you have Loose players preflop who are aggressive post draw after you. (Do I just leave this table or simply tighten up?) Also- Is 2 pair usually strong enough to call? (related note- most players really aren't aggressive here. Many people are NOT raising 2 pair or sets PF. They certainly aren't getting value out of their hands but it also makes it hard to put them on hands since they don't raise anything.)

(4) in line with above... the hardest decision in this game is figuring out what to BET with oop. If I raise PF UTG with KKKxy and 2-3 callers after me. If I don't improve and people drew 1 card after me... does one typically bet here? I feel so often that unless you know there's a horrible calling station, no one's usually going to call unless they made their draw. But if I check then I can induce someone to bet with 2 pair or such... Do I have to call? (I'm sure its situational but there might be some rules of thumb that I'm not aware of)

[2461Badugi]

Sounds like you need to work on seat selection.

[Big Limpin]

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I've been playing 5cd for less then a week. Really enjoying it. I have some theory questions relating to the Gap Concept. I hope this isn't too many for one post...


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I am old pro compared to you, having played for nearly SIX weeks! [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] I agree that draw is fun. One of the first things i learned is that there is a HUGE gap; when you start behind, you usually stay behind.
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(1) At the Pokerstars .25/.50PL tables, my experience thus far is that most of the players are not terribly aggressive. I have notes on many players who don't raise with any hand less then 2 pair.

Is it fair to say against such a player you shouldn't call with less then perhaps Kings or Aces up? (wait for a set?) I have been folded hands up to pocket aces against these players predraw and have felt good about it.


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clarify if i'm interpreting this wrong...you mean that the vanilla player there will limp with the majority of his hands, only raising when he hold a monster? (or at least, better than AA)

do you mean when to call behind when they DO raise or do you also mean when they limp on usually a weaker holding? I'll assume the former.

As a first approximation, i think your calling range can be more or less whatever beats their range more often than not. There is a useful table in SS1 covering "mediums", that is, given their range, what is the average strength of the hand.

for example: (runs to go get book)
-if they will make their raise on any hand AA or better, then you will be ahead of them as often as not if you hold...TENS-up
-if their raise is with any hand 2pr or better, you need ACES-up to beat the median
-if their range is JACKS-up or better, you would need 333
-if their range is ACES-up or better, you need 999
-if they would only raise with trips or better, you need KKK

...and so forth. this is important because it is all too easy to say "his range here to be raising is a decent 2pr, and i have a better than decent 2pr, so i'm in good shape". So easy to assume he always has near the bottom of his range.

Anywho, i say thats a decent first approximation of calling standards...based only on how you stack up to their probable hands. However,POSITION, POSITION, POSITION...you'll be able to make money off somewhat weaker hands than that, as i assume this situation is more often them raise-opening in early positions and you calling, say, from the button. Having position is key. As when you improve you can really thump them, and you can get out cheaper when you dont improve and they appear to have. Likewise, i'd guess you'd wnat a stronger hand than the medians would suggest if they rasied from late position and you are debating a call from the blinds.
There may be some other factors as well, such as you being a better player who can win bigger pots and lose smaller ones, irregardless of position. I'd assume at PL50 this would be the case.

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(2) Against aggressive players (raises any pair/flush/straight draw)- what is the minimum I should call with? (against these players I'm automatically reraising most 2 pairs and anything better) But I'm never sure how to act against these guys with naked aces particularly if they have position on me.


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I want to hear someone else's opinion on this, as i've been meaning to post the same question. When a maniac is raising most pairs and better AND DRAWS, what hands are profitable? I dont really know. But i'd certainly be more inclined to raise the hands i do play.
If a guy has been raising anything resembling a decent hand, i think i'd be willing to play behind him with AA.
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(3) I'm a little uncertain about the value of opening with naked pairs at tables with loose aggressives in the first 3 positions (sb, bb or UTG). Typical play-
I have a AAxyz UTG, pot raise it- 3-4 callers. I draw 2 or 3 cards (I vary it)... people after me draw anywhere from 1 to 3 cards. If I don't improve I can't call any bet. If I bet into the field they are calling with any 2 pair or better. Since I don't improve that often (and when I do a certain percentage of the time I'm beaten)... I'm a little confused as to the merits of raising AA in EP when you have Loose players preflop who are aggressive post draw after you. (Do I just leave this table or simply tighten up?) Also- Is 2 pair usually strong enough to call? (related note- most players really aren't aggressive here. Many people are NOT raising 2 pair or sets PF. They certainly aren't getting value out of their hands but it also makes it hard to put them on hands since they don't raise anything.)


[/ QUOTE ] Nothing wrong with check/folding unimproved AA. If four people called your potbet pre-...you'll win it all back and more the times you do improve.
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(4) in line with above... the hardest decision in this game is figuring out what to BET with oop. If I raise PF UTG with KKKxy and 2-3 callers after me. If I don't improve and people drew 1 card after me... does one typically bet here? I feel so often that unless you know there's a horrible calling station, no one's usually going to call unless they made their draw. But if I check then I can induce someone to bet with 2 pair or such... Do I have to call? (I'm sure its situational but there might be some rules of thumb that I'm not aware of)

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The dogma is that leading into a 1card draw is bad news generally. You'll have to use your judgement though, because usually if they did have a draw, they missed. If there is just one guy and he drew 1, i wouldn't bet. If theres 3 guys, one drew 1, the others appear to be on pairs...then you can probably find value in betting (bet something you can get away from if drawboy raises, obv).
I definately see merit in inducing bluffs. Expierience probably helps in making good calls/folds.
Heres an example of how it can trainwreck hero was in the blinds, rasied QQQ predraw, one caller had a draw, the other caller had a pair. Hero bets out big, unfortunately, QQQ was no longer good. Then again, if the drawer had missed, hero might have got a call from the other guy, so who knows.

Take everying i said with 2 grains of salt. I REALLY hope you get other responses here, 'cause im a limitdonk (+noob) and am far from sure that what ive written is correct. But your post looked so lonely! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[kurto]

Thanks, Limping that was helpful.

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clarify if i'm interpreting this wrong...you mean that the vanilla player there will limp with the majority of his hands, only raising when he hold a monster? (or at least, better than AA)


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Yes, that is what I was saying. There are quite a few players who are only raising with really strong hands. (not as many maniacs as I would expect.) And in terms of reraising, its almost always a pat hand. I think the worst reraise I've seen is sets and in those cases it was reraising against specific loose players. When I play tight and if anyone notices, I only get reraised by people who were dealt a straight or better.

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for example: (runs to go get book)
-if they will make their raise on any hand AA or better, then you will be ahead of them as often as not if you hold...TENS-up
-if their raise is with any hand 2pr or better, you need ACES-up to beat the median
-if their range is JACKS-up or better, you would need 333
-if their range is ACES-up or better, you need 999
-if they would only raise with trips or better, you need KKK



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Very helpful. I checked SS2 and found nothing. Didn't think to go back to SS1.

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Anywho, i say thats a decent first approximation of calling standards...based only on how you stack up to their probable hands. However,POSITION, POSITION, POSITION...you'll be able to make money off somewhat weaker hands than that, as i assume this situation is more often them raise-opening in early positions and you calling, say, from the button. Having position is key.

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Honestly, I think the power of position is more clear in this game then any other. Since you have so much less information then Holdem or stud games, the power of position, I think, increases.

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I want to hear someone else's opinion on this, as i've been meaning to post the same question. When a maniac is raising most pairs and better AND DRAWS, what hands are profitable? I dont really know. But i'd certainly be more inclined to raise the hands i do play.
If a guy has been raising anything resembling a decent hand, i think i'd be willing to play behind him with AA.


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Hear hear. In position I've been calling with pocket aces against aggressive players. OOP I'm often been inclined to just fold them. Note: If the player is aggressive predraw and passive postdraw, I'm more inclined to call no matter what my position. Its the ones that are aggressive every street that I'm not certain what my standards pref and post draw should be.

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The dogma is that leading into a 1card draw is bad news generally. You'll have to use your judgement though, because usually if they did have a draw, they missed. If there is just one guy and he drew 1, i wouldn't bet. If theres 3 guys, one drew 1, the others appear to be on pairs...then you can probably find value in betting (bet something you can get away from if drawboy raises, obv).


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Good to know. I've been mixing it up... checking a lot (and deciding which of the players I would call a bet from) and sometimes betting if I think its strong enough to withstand what I think their calling range is.

Anyhow... thanks for your reponse. It was helpful.