RAZZ - strategy for the micro-newbie discussion

[Praxising]

I hope we do general strategy discussion here - someone tell me if this needs to be moved...

I play NLHE small-ball low but not micro poker.

Limit is VERY wierd to me. I was wondering if some would like to have a sort of meandering discussion about Razz? Like comment on when to fold? I KNOW - situational, but there are some times you gotta fold - like when you have 875KK and the other guy is showing A234 and raising the 5472 that just bet. Good idea to steal away into the night.

No matter what I read, learning is more about playing for me, so I tried to develop a system until I get more experience - since FT is down again, I have some time to post this stuff.

I get the three good cards on 3rd. Not that I've never played JA2 in some sits, but three good cards - A-7.

Now, my rule is I will call one bad card on 4th ("bad" is higher then 8) and as long as I have four good cards on 5th, I'm probably gonna see the river unless it gets REAL obvious I'm beat.

So my question is: do you all EVER fold on the river if you have some sort of made hand (A-8)? It's like in limit you will ALWAYS have the odds to call - even if you don't make a hand - like have a 9 or T high.

I was on PStars last night and I mis-clicked and raised the river when I meant to call and she folded. I was stunned, I had crap, I thought she was good. Now I'm wondering if I fold too fast and assume they have better hands than they do. I don't want to get sloppy at micro limits it'll screw me up later.

I know the odds of hitting a draw in HE, I know whether to call or bet or fold - well - pretty much - where's the odds stuff for Razz? I sat here tonight with some real cards dealing out seven seven-card hands - over and over - looks like about every ten hands or so, you'll get a five card 8 or better. And those hands might get dealt out KQ8 and never get played.

When I was playing trny's and SnGs waiting for my money to clear ePass so I could do cash games, I cashed in those by shamelessly stealing my way to the money. I thought maybe ring games would be different but - seriously - big stakes players, come clean - what ARE those hole cards you're playing?

Nobody's making a living playing Razz waiting for A46.

[chucky]

Carlos Chadha's posts on low limit razz are very useful. You do need to fold 8 highs on the river sometimes even before then. The "odds stuff" for razz can be computed by looking at your opponents up cards, and their actions such as completing or raising on 3rd, checking 5th after without paint hitting, etc, and knowing what cards you need to hit a smooth 8 or a 7. Run your hands through propokertools as well.

[SGspecial]

*TT* will tell you when to fold

[jbrennen]

[ QUOTE ]
I sat here tonight with some real cards dealing out seven seven-card hands - over and over - looks like about every ten hands or so, you'll get a five card 8 or better. And those hands might get dealt out KQ8 and never get played.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're off by a little bit...

The actual odds of ending up with a hand after 7 cards:

Wheel: 0.58%
6 low or better: 2.94%
7 low or better: 8.49%
8 low or better: 18.34%
9 low or better: 32.67%
T low or better: 50.37%
J low or better: 68.93%
Q low or better: 84.97%
K low or better: 95.39%


Of course, those numbers are only statistical curiosities, because the object is not to make a 7 low or an 8 low, but to make a winning hand. Those numbers also don't take dead cards into consideration.

When an opponent raises you on 4th street when you're showing 4-5 and he's showing A-6, it's for certain that his chance to make a 7 is a lot higher than 8.49%.



Perhaps one thing that can be drawn from the numbers is that at a full ring game with everybody playing every hand to the end, you'd generally expect to see somewhat less than 1 actual made 7-lows on the end, and you'd generally expect to see somewhat more than 1 actual made 8-lows on the end. Which should illustrate why drawing to a 7-low is a much safer target than drawing to an 8-low, and why it's probably reasonable to throw your rough 8 starting hands in the muck if it looks like you're going to meet resistance -- on average, there will probably be another 8-low out there by the end of the hand, so starting out with an 8-7 is very dicey.

[Praxising]

Thanks for the advice here and in the other thread. I've been reading recommended posts and websites....

I found a bunch of Razz probabilities - I thought it was interesting in light of my unscientific experiment that the chance of being dealt a three-card seven is 10.14%.

And, for the newbie who really wants to enter with that AK2, the odds of making a five card 7 in seven cards when starting with A23 is about 2 to 1. The odds of making that hand starting with AK2 are a little over 8 to 1.

A few days of research and applying your advice my game is much improved.

Now if I can get that hand-converter to work......