What Makes Socialism??

[Kazuya]

First off, I am a big believer in democracy and the idea that people can become independently wealthy... but I just found out my girlfriend is a socialist. This came as a surprise to me, but whatever. We had a talk about politics and basically she thinks no one should be that much richer then anyone else, where as i disagree and think capitalism supports work ethics and for the most part those who deserve, receive.

My question is what makes up Socialism? All i know about it is it's basically a "softer" communism. Can someone educate me on what Socialism exactly is? and the differences between that and communism? Anyways me and my girlfriend had a long discussion, and I'm sure will have another, but this time i would like to be more educated on Socialism so i can stick it to her.

[Borodog]

Socialism is the absence of private ownership of the factors of production. Communism is simply complete socialism.

[Kazuya]

ok i knew that part, i guess a better question is. i am a Capitalist at heart, i know that for me personally capitalism suits who I am better. A better question is why is capitalism>socialism?

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
A better question is why is capitalism>socialism?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Freedom is cool.

2. Socialism produces more for the poor now while capitalism produces more for everyone in the future. Over time, capitalism will make more people less poor, while socialism will tend to stagnate, but it can be tough to think about the poor who will be alive 200 years from now when you've got poor from the here and now to deal with.

3. Freedom is cool.

[Dan.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A better question is why is capitalism>socialism?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Freedom is cool.

2. Socialism produces more for the poor now while capitalism produces more for everyone in the future. Over time, capitalism will make more people less poor, while socialism will tend to stagnate, but it can be tough to think about the poor who will be alive 200 years from now when you've got poor from the here and now to deal with.

3. Freedom is cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slave wages vs. death. Excellent decision. If that's freedom...then I don't know what to think about anything...

[AlexM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A better question is why is capitalism>socialism?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Freedom is cool.

2. Socialism produces more for the poor now while capitalism produces more for everyone in the future. Over time, capitalism will make more people less poor, while socialism will tend to stagnate, but it can be tough to think about the poor who will be alive 200 years from now when you've got poor from the here and now to deal with.

3. Freedom is cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slave wages vs. death. Excellent decision. If that's freedom...then I don't know what to think about anything...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, socialism isn't freedom.

[valtaherra]

[ QUOTE ]
Slave wages vs. death. Excellent decision. If that's freedom...then I don't know what to think about anything...

[/ QUOTE ]

Only in the most anti-capitalist societies today do workers find themselves in a slave wages versus death situation.

A key element of capitalism is the accumulation of capital. A key element of the accumulation of capital is an increase in productivity. A key element of an increase in productivity is higher compensation for workers.

A key element of socialism is indulgence in present consumption at the expense of future consumption, and the destruction of accumulated capital.

Its a simple concept really - if you dont own something, but you have can expend its uses or consume it, then there is no cost in doing so, for if you owned it then the cost would be *not having it in the future*.

Look at what happened to Zimbabwe. I think they used to call that the "breadbasket of Africa." Now watch what happens to Venezuela.

[PLOlover]

[ QUOTE ]
A better question is why is capitalism>socialism?

[/ QUOTE ]
Like a lot of things it's a choice that is made and there's a tradeoff.
I mean, a lot of people buy insurance and they love it. As poker players we should realize the -ev of insurance, or the house advantage, but other people don't look at it that way and buy all the insurance they can.

[Borodog]

[ QUOTE ]
ok i knew that part, i guess a better question is. i am a Capitalist at heart, i know that for me personally capitalism suits who I am better. A better question is why is capitalism>socialism?

[/ QUOTE ]

On Capitalism.

Basically, an absence of private ownership and freedom of exchange in the factors of production precludes the existence of prices for those factors. Without prices, there are no profits and losses generated during the production of various alternative goods and services. Without profits and losses, there is no way to tell if the value of inputs are being raised, or if they are being lowered, i.e. wasted, during the various production processes. In other words, there is no way to prevent or even identify waste of resources or to terminate such waste. In other words, under socialism economic calculation is impossible.

Socialism works fine in household economies, or in small tribal economies (maybe up to 50 or 60 people) where everyone can generally agree on the allocation of resources, say by defering to a revered chief or a few elders, and where peer monitoring can control the incentive problem, but it cannot possibly work in a larger society. There are simply too many alternative uses for every resource to rationally allocate them without a price system. In large societies, socialism and its monumental waste can exist in some industries only because the productivity of other industries remains free to be cannibalized. It also helps if a socialized society can look across the borders at the market prices generated elsewhere, i.e. to essentially "cheat off of other societies' papers" in order to make economic calculations. These prices won't accurately reflect the demands of the local consumers or the scarcity of various factors of production, so there will still be waste, but it is better than nothing.

This is how the Soviet Union existed for 70-odd years at all. In 1917, Lenin outlawed private property in the factors of production and resort to prices outright. By 1921 the economy had collapsed, and so little was being produced that the populace were fleeing to the countryside. Their factories had been stripped of machinery, which had been sold for food. Banditry ruled the countryside. Only a return to small private plots of land and economic calculation, using mostly foreign prices, prevented the implosion of the Soviet Union.

[surftheiop]

Great post, all the resident ACers need to make more responces like this and lay of the "ZOMG they got guns and steal from me" approach. All the oneliners can make capitalism pretty unappealing while posts like this with evidence give capitalism the respect it needs if we ever expect people to favor the completly free market.